Pan Am student whines about whiners

pinot

New Member
Just to clarify, I think it’s really the ex-Pan Am students that whine too much. That’s apparent on this board anyways, but it’s funny how it’s the same 3 or 4 people in every thread. Many of the current student and CFI’s refer to these ex-Pan Am whiners as people “who couldn’t cut it”. Although this might be a little of an unfair assumption for all ex-Pan Amers, there is probably some truth in it around here.

I had heard in the library someone saying there were some people dising Pan Am on JetCareers.com. I was surprised to hear it, so I came on to check it out. Just to throw out a current student’s opinion, I am a student here and I love it. First of all, I just love to fly. Then there’s the school: new planes, excellent training, and what you get for your money. Compared to other flight schools, for the same money you end up with more at Pan Am. Much more multi-time and that CRJ looks sweet.

As an airline pilot, your entire quality of life at that airline depends on one thing: your seniority number. So if the goal is to become an airline pilot (mine is), it would behoove a pilot in training to complete training, gain the minimum required hours, and get hired in the least amount of time. I don’t know if these whiners are extremely shortsighted or had career aspirations of crop dusting, but the whole deal at Pan Am is speed. CFI’s average between 75 and 100 hours a month, and some of the recently hired by 121 operations where CFI’s for less than a year. What’s the waiting list at FSI to be a CFI again? And how many hours are those FBO CFI’s getting a month? Makes sense how everyone you talk to who actual goes here or instructs here, knows it’s the place to be. What’s really weird is to hear all the whiners going on about how Pan Am makes you take an ACE program. It’s the ACE graduates that are getting hired left and right. Complaints against logic and facts, some sort of denial.
 

blee256

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It’s the ACE graduates that are getting hired left and right.


[/ QUOTE ]

I heard back in october that no one from the ace program was getting hired. and people who wanted to get the money back guarentee were getting the run around. and then I found out a few months later that they canceled it. Now why would they have to cancel it, if everyone was getting hired and they didn't have to be giving away refunds?

-Brian
 

secretapproach

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I heard back in october that no one from the ace program was getting hired. and people who wanted to get the money back guarentee were getting the run around. and then I found out a few months later that they canceled it. Now why would they have to cancel it, if everyone was getting hired and they didn't have to be giving away refunds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I enjoyed my tour at Panam. It was nice to see facilities that still smelled new. The students that I met seemed content and were happy to talk to me. But a big red flag went up for me when I heard that they had canceled the refund policy for the ACE program. The reason they gave me was that everyone was getting hired so they didn't need to give refunds anymore. I would have appreciated an honest reason because it was a great marketing tool for them and if they didn't have to give out the refunds they would be foolish to not offer them! I don't understand how they can give that reason with a straight face.
 

pure_IMC

New Member
Theres no indication to me that they ever cancelled the refund policy, and infact I know of people that have gotten their money back. And it is true that people that have the ace have been hired. We have two guys that have interviews currently that just took ace a month ago. And before they had ace they had plenty of hours for an interview.
 

pinot

New Member
I am at DVT in Phoenix. I haven't heard anything about the refund policy changing, but it doesn't change the fact that it is the pilots that went through ACE that are getting hired by regionals like Chautauqua, Comair, and Skywest (to name but a few). Money well spent as far as I’m concerned. Not too mention it’s less than half of what you’d pay for the similar training at other places.

Ahh Mavmb1, I have been looking for you. I needed to find the person who could finally answer this question for me: Is ignorance truly bliss? Yeah, the only happy people at Pan Am are the admin staff, good one. Certainly not the ones living their dream. Sour grapes? I would be pissed too if I quit a school that I should have stayed at. Knowing I could potentially loose years before I made it to the airlines. You might consider watching more soap opera’s to get your drama quota fulfilled rather than living in fiction.

By the way, how's Sawyer treating you? I hope you haven't made your identity too well know. There have been cases where airlines have not hired people because of the unprofessional characteristics they displayed in these flight forums.
 

expendableone

New Member
Classic!! This is awesome, I am not even gonna start throwing stones. P.S. I have an ACE guarantee for you, u r a sucker. I love salespeople they get the future customer to believe thier reterict. I only wish I, "was gonna get to the airlines faster, considering there are no jobs to be gotten." " I love to fly." At $150 an hour for an Archer, you'd better love to spend money.
 

guido161st

New Member
Mav-

Don't even reply to this joker. He is obviously new to this industry. My guess is he's probably young and dumb and just hasn't realized what he's in for yet. When you come on a thread and insult people, you obviously are immature. I don't recall any of us whining- read the posts. We are sayin what happened to us- because PEOPLE ASK!! By the way I have twice as many hours as anyone in my Pan Am class. Leaving Pan Am was the best choice I ever made. I left everyone there in the dust. I never said everyone should leave- I stated that me leaving was the best thing I ever did. I would still be searching for a job if I stayed. So for you to come on and say that people at Pan Am say we "couldn't cut it" is Bull. Couldn't cut what? Them stealing our money? The scandalous administration? Nope I couldn't cut there pathetic excuse for a business- so I bounced. Greatest thing I ever did. Not to mention, I got many people to follow! I hope you don't have the same experiences I did- I know there are many people who finished all the way through without a regret- but don't EVER say that we couldn't cut it. I'd still be payin off my student loan- with half as many hours and no job. Hell no-wouldn't change a thing! Good luck- and watch your pocketbook.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Pinot-

The people that post in the forums here have the ability to stay anonymous.

The only person with any details of someone's identity is myself and myself alone.
 

secretapproach

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Theres no indication to me that they ever cancelled the refund policy, and infact I know of people that have gotten their money back. And it is true that people that have the ace have been hired. We have two guys that have interviews currently that just took ace a month ago. And before they had ace they had plenty of hours for an interview.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was told by the admissions rep that the refund policy has been canceled. I couldn't find any mention of it on the website anymore. If you came in under the refund policy I'm sure it's still valid for you. It wasn't a minor detail that I maybe misunderstood. I was told that the refund policy had been canceled because everyone was getting hired anyway. That just doesn't make any sense.
 

blee256

Well-Known Member
the refund policy on ACE was canceled. Eric Priester called me to tell me. I was going to attend Pan Am starting in Jan. But I decided against going to an academy.

If you started before the end of the year you are still entitled to a refund if you dont get hired. Its for the people that started later on that wont be offered the money back guarentee.

-Brian
 

pinot

New Member
I never said all ex-Pan Am students couldn’t make the cut, just you Keephope. I’m joking of course, but the all caps order to tell me not to was irresistible. I apologize to anyone I’ve offended and anyone I will offend. These message boards have a way of doing that when there’s no voice inflection to hear the tone of how things are meant to be said. I am merely defending a school I take pride in from attacks, which is personal to me.

Seriously though, it is interesting in going through the whiners’ previous posts how they admit the training was excellent, priced competitively with other academies, but it’s those damn evil admin people. I have not had any bad experiences with any admin staff, so I have no idea what you’re talking about, but its unfortunate that you did. What’s a little transparent to an observer of your posts is this. You have been coming here for many months now and are still complaining about the Pan Am admin staff. Common sense would lead to questioning your motives behind this. It is obviously a sensitive subject to you, and your defensive attitude seems to be covering up an unpleasant truth: You blew it at Pan Am by leaving and are now paying the consequences of delaying your airline career. I really wish you the best with your career and hope you can move one from complaining about a quality school. Maybe when and if you end up at an airline you’ll finally get over it. Word of advice, a good attitude will get you there quicker.

Thanks Doug for keeping everything anonymous and not publishing india papa’s. I’m not trying to reduce your traffic by scaring people from posting. I was referring to a thread on flightinfo.com where even though posters were anonymous, they revealed themselves through personal comments they made and were not hired because of it. It makes sense to me. If I were looking to hire someone and I new that person was going online and attacking a previous employer, how would that person treat my company if things didn’t work out? Again, attitudes play an important role in being hired by an airline. Mine may stink too, in complaining about complainers as I am with a self-righteous attitude. But I know that by going though the Pan Am program I will get the chance to display it in an airline interview.

My little hiatus between checkrides and beginning a new program is coming to an end and I won’t have time to hang out on this board. So please give me some valid arguments if you have any on why I should quit Pan Am. My goal is to be an airline pilot, which is where I will hopefully end up in short order by staying at Pan Am. That’s just a proven fact you can’t dispute. Do you have anything else besides the so-called evil admin?
 

VFT00

New Member
Oh dear, here we go again with the latest Pam Am Zealot....Listen sonny, we don't care at all that you have decided to give all your money to Pan Am in the hope that they will get you a job with a regional sooner than another school [do you know what PFT is?] That's just great, I'm excited for you...really. We don't want you to quit, we hope you stay and end up on the wall of fame [do they still have that?] We see our role here as making potential students aware of some of the difficulties we had while we were at the school...there's no hope for you I'm afraid...

Like KeepHope and others, I also went to Pan Am through Multi Commercial but moved on when I realised that their claims and promises simply don't hold true in today's market and I was tired of paying through the nose for what is fairly average instruction, focused on airline procedures. I left and now am a Gold Seal CFI at another flight school earing a lot more money and flying a lot more interesting airplanes than your average Pan Am CFI. My experience level is higher than any Pan Am student/CFI could hope for with the syllabus operating there and through my school I have met many very intersting people who have no interest in flying for a living but are interested in flying.

But ultimately, I am aware of a lot of the CFIs, including nearly all of the Stage Check CFIs and Assistant Chiefs, who are still there almost 2 years since I left, why is this? I think it must be that they would rather stay at Pan Am and instruct than go to a reigonal airline, after all it's such a great place. So clearly, someone like you will no doubt step ahead of these fine individuals and pick up that regional job before them.

As for the ACE program, it make perfect sense to me that because it's so successful, they would stop offering refunds, beacause without a doubt you'll tell me that every 800hr ACE grad is snapped up over the thousands of experienced 121 pilots out there looking for jobs. No need for for that pesky refund policy..

And finally, the creme de la creme of flightschools is so desparate/sad that they are offerring a $300 headset free with every sign up, yes it's true you can read it in AOPA flight training [Pinot, AOPA is the Aicraft Owners and Pilots Association, it's a GA organisation, sorry General Aviation].

Pinot, we welcome your comments here, but you don't have the right to feel superior just beacause you go to Pan Am, beacuse to be frank you're not and we know it.
 

guido161st

New Member
Pinot-

that post was a little better. I was offended that you could say something like everyone who leaves pan am couldn't cut it. There is a couple things I disagree with. None of us ex-pan amers come on these forums and say bad things out of the blue. There is someone that asks advice or says something or makes a comment and then we say our experiences. So for you to say the we have been coming here for months and complaining about the same things is wrong. Also- NO we did not blow it by leaving Pan Am. I'm not sure how I can make this clear to you. It was the smartest thing for my career that I have ever done. Not to mention- I saved a ton of money. I think I was at Pan Am before most of these people on this board. Before things got really bad. My experiences were just personal- yes the training and planes were great- but I had some bad admin experiences. Now with this whole ACE program garbage- don't even get me started. Don't you think there is something wrong with the way they have their program set up? Open your eyes and watch your money!
 

guido161st

New Member
also I thought I'd mention that it's not the quality of Pan Am that is the problem. It's the fact that you can get the same quality for half the price and many other places.
 

pinot

New Member
I feel I must assert my freedom to comment on an important public issue that has thrust into the vortex of public comment. By now everyone should have heard about the “whiners’” latest publicity stunt and their fictional methods of solicitation. In case you haven't heard or have even forgotten, allow me to refresh your memory: Without going into all the gory details, let's just say that if you've read this far, then you probably either agree with me or are on the way to agreeing with me. And as much as some people may disagree with the following observations, I stand firmly by them. But before I continue, allow me to explain that what might be insisted as beyond reproach, is in fact quite approachable. Let's just say that we can never return to the past. And if we are ever to move forward, to the future, we indubitably have to reveal the constant tension between centripetal and centrifugal forces of dialogized pandering resulting from these magic-bullet explanations. Although I am only one turd floating in the moral cesspool that the Pan Am forum has become, the objection may still be raised that my memoirs enhance performance standards, productivity, and competitiveness, and I refuse to kowtow to social graces for their sake in and of themselves.

I'm not an activist, and I'm not a cynic, although my friends and adversaries alike might argue the opposite. I'm just a person who wants to direct your attention in some detail to the immeasurable mistaken assumptions made by VFT (A Pan Am complainer wrong again, what are the odds?). Just about all of the stage check CFI’s and assistant chiefs that were doing that even 6 months ago are gone. They’re now at 121 operations. Where are you again? I am so glad you have realized I am not superior to you, now what’s this GA thing you speak of?

Running out of time here, do you have anything based on reality for me?
 

VFT00

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I am only one turd

[/ QUOTE ] You said it buddy..

[ QUOTE ]
Running out of time here

[/ QUOTE ] Don't let me keep you...I can't rebut your claim about the CFIs etc without giving away personal information, and unlike you I won't compromise the site or Doug. However, I still access the online schedule occasionally and they are still there along with all nearly all of my classmates. Keephope can verify this.
 

perpetual

Well-Known Member
Pinot:

I have gone to Pan Am in the Fort Pierce location.

I got ratings and then Booked the hell outta there. Do you know why I left early?

1.) Money

2.) Training

3.) Money again.

Let me clarify a Few things for you. You are in the Pheonix location it seems,
therefore I CANNOT say anything about "that Pan Am."

However......


The Florida Location is a bad apple.

IF you enjoy (and really seriously THINK about this) Paying an EXCEEDINGLY
large amount of money for:

A)Instruction

and

B)Aircraft then By all means, continue.. and do so with all of the pride you can muster up.

I think that "intelligence" lies with those who "choose" to pay for "less"
and either get "more" or the "Same."

Oh, If you are interested also in getting "quality" time, and the "quantity" of time in
multiengine aircraft you should check out a place called "ariben" www.aribenaviator.com

I am getting Multi-egine time for litterally the same and EVEN sometimes UNDER the price of a Pan Am Archer III.

NOW that Makes both kinds of Sense and Cents! to me..

Oh, and the Pan Am Sim time in the "RJ" ftd.. is not "loggable"

For the AMOUNT of money that You are "WASTEING" in the Pan Am RJ sim in their A.C.E program,
you could be earning a "VIABLE" type rating in the aircraft.

Oh Just one more thing,.. And heres a biggie:

Pan Am/ EW holdings, have Broken their OWN contract with me. Per the contract,
they are in LEGAL violation of what the contractual agreement states.

It should be painfully obvious to you aside from the Cost as well as the less then
"stellar" training,. that Pan Am (Fort Pierce) is not the place to be for the simple
fact the COMPANY cannot hold up to its part of the Legal Agreement.
 

pinot

New Member
VFT, I’m gland we can be buddies. We’re both pilots after all, we have something in common. Compromised Doug and the site? I didn’t realize a pro Pan Am opinion did that. You silly. Oh, and when was the last time you checked schedule? Please do so now and get back to me with a number, keephope can verify it.

The money thing: Common sense to me, you get what you pay for. Every FBO private and instrument that comes in here knows half as much as a Pan Am trainee. You know this is true. How about the cost of the Embry Riddle program? Extremely high, but those guys are some of the most knowledgeable in the industry. Pan Am actually delivering pilots to the airlines in such a short amount of time is invaluable to me.

And still stewing about Pan Am?…Interesting. Tick tock.
 
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