Pan Am student whines about whiners

[panampilot]

Well said CB9. I couldn't agree more. And just to add the proverbial exclamation point to CB9'S comments, Chataqua airlines this last week just offered more interviews to some of our Ace gradutes. It seems we don't have to talk the talk because we are walking the walk.

 

[Mavmb]

"Keephope and Mav: I won’t argue you can get ratings faster and cheaper at FBO’s. We have all read the FBO classified ads in the back of flying magazines guaranteeing ratings in minimum time for minimum money. And we’re all very proud of you for pointing that out here. But don’t tell me you get the same knowledge level as someone who puts in over twice as much time, busting their butt in an intense Pan Am program as the guy with the quick, in no-time rating."

Yes, I am going to tell you that you can get the same knowledge level! Your notion that someone can only learn at Pan Am only shows your arrogant attitude. We have a lot of career students at our FBO. They fly twice a day or whenever they want. Give me a break, you can't judge people you don't even know! They probably study even harder and spend a lot more time home studying then students at Pan Am because we don't have ground schools spoon feeding everyone the information like you do there. And by the way, our ground schools typically cost 50 dollars. How much are they at Pan Am? A couple thousand?

"My argument is this: So now you have your ratings, but how are you going to get hired by an airline? After all, this is JetCareers, not Career CFI’s. I don’t see the FBO’s producing career airline pilots like the academies are. Pan Am is, that is a fact you cannot dispute. It takes you longer to get your ratings yes, an investment to be a better pilot. Then you go online as an instructor and build an average of 85 hours a month instructing. At the FBO’s, if you are lucky enough to get hired as a CFI, the national average is 25 hours a month (if you are averaging more than this at an FBO congratulations are in order. You make up for the other FBO’s doing less). And yes, the Pan Am students and CFI’s do know this is the place to be.

So the Pan Am grad is ready for the airlines after 8 months of instructing, while the FBO needs to instruct for over 2 years to get that amount of time. This more than offsets the amount of time in which you got your FBO pilot ratings, and you get a better education. And you actually end up airline ready at least a year earlier, again with academy training (where the airlines are hiring from). That one year faster could potentially lead to an extra year as a senior captain at a major. This could potentially lead to an extra $200,000 in your bank account. Now answer yourselves this, because you are here to answer questions. Is your cheaper and faster rating, actually cheaper and faster in the long run?"

The rest of your post above is nothing but a bunch of propoganda. So you're saying that if I work at an FBO then I can't make it to the airlines any faster than you can? And that I have an less of a chance making to the airlines then u do? That's just another example of an arrogant attitude. We just had an instructor get hired by Air Wisconsin to fly CRJs. So guess that blows everything you said out of the water. And at FBO's we generally have more passerby pilots coming in and out, which you and the rest of the Pan Amers never meet.

 

[panampilot]

mavmb1, I understand your argument but I do have to agree with CB9 on one point. I was just reading another post of yours in another thread about only building 5 hours of flight time a week lately over at Sawyer. I don't knock teaching over at an FBO, that's great. Whatever job you can find in this market is a good one. The difference is here at Pan Am or many other flight academies, you are assigned students to teach and they continue to keep your schedule full whereas you must go find your own students. Right now I am averaging 85 - 100 hours a month as a CFI. Therefore, by having more students and flying more I will be eligible for interviews a lot quicker.

Now this isn't always the case, I'm sure there have been months where you have had a full schedule and been pretty busy. I have a full schedule consistently. Again, I'm not saying I'm any better than you or that I am a better CFI. I'm only saying that it helps to have a constant student flow to get you the hours you need now.

So, I agree that by teaching at a flight academy (not just Pan Am) you can build hours a whole lot quicker, consistently.

 

[VFT00]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems this Pan Am forum has become a place where student’s and instructors from other schools come to talk trash about Pan Am. They say their here just answering questions, but I haven’t see any questions their answering, just a constant barrage of garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

No arguments here, your point is..?

If you Pan Am guys need a group hug and some reassurance about your flight school, you won't find it here. You need to coordinate a secret internet meeting place where you can soothe your egos and pay homage to your greatness, we'll never go there I promise..until then, this is America and I'll continue to offer my opinion in a free and open manner on a subject I know something about. I paid a lot of money for my ratings at Pan Am and I've earned the right to speak up.

 

[guido161st]

CB9- that was well said, I must admit. I was all the other Pan Amers could speak at a level as yours- even though you sound like admin. However, you proved one of my points. Perpetual was sugar coated, went to the school, fell in love like pinot, and then after being there for awhile saw what was really going on. Pan Am isn't a bad school. They have many things to offer- but when a school makes it SUPER OBVIOUS that they care more about the money than the student- I say no thanks. Sure they are a business, but at least they could try to make it look like they cared. But they saw a gold mine in aviation flight schools and jumped all over it. Now this is only my opinion- and I'm glad with my decision to leave.

About the whole who produces better pilots, FBO or Pan AM- it's a toss up. Some are going to better some are going to be worse. It's not really something you can argue. You get in what you put in!

For me it's a personal thing to want to do this route as opposed to stickin around Pan Am. Maybe you will get to the airlines faster, maybe not- but either way it is WAY TO MUCH MONEY to go to Pan Am- IMHO

 

[chunk75]

Collective dudes:

I haven't said jack about Pan Am in a while. I have sworn it off. I only asked pinot about a statement he made, TOTALLY UNRELATED TO PAIFA.

Again, for the record, I haven't mentioned anything about PAIFA in a while and don't plan on it, either.

Oh, and as far as not having a life because I have a lot of posts....does that extend to every other prolific poster? By your logic, I guess Eagle, Iain, and Doug have no lives either?!?! I guess the fact that I've been on JC for a long time would have nothing to do with it...think years here. How about the fact that I type fast? Or have good experience to share (not related to FSI/PAIFA/insert whatever school)? Maybe I asked a lot of questions before jumping in?

What does it say about you that you post here? Since I post, I'm a big loser, but you're just a little loser? Or are you just a shy loser? Either way, by your own logic, you're a loser.

Chunk

 

[Mavmb]

Yeah Pan Am pilot, I agree with you there. I do wish I were getting more hours right now. However, I will withold his name, but I just had another Pan Am flight instructor come into the FBO because he got fed up with instructing at Pan Am and quit there. And I did ask him, "Why did you quit? You were getting a lot of hours there weren't you?"

And he replied, "A lot of hours late at night in the sim." He also told me that they kept cheating him on multi time and never gave him any multi students like they promised him before hand. So I don't know. I'm just telling you what he said.

By the way, what's going on with the ACE program right now? Is that now required for students before they are allowed to get their CFI?

 

[derg]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all Chunk, I don't follow you around these boards I'm actually making good use of time unlike yourself who has how many posts at JC? I have a life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww man, I have way more posts than Chunk!

I guess I should change my title to "uberLoser" or something like that!

 

[panampilot]

[ QUOTE ]
guess I should change my title to "uberLoser" or something like that!

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright point taken Chunk and Doug. My bad. I am just bitter that I have to defend my school on this message board. My wife has threatened to make me sleep on the couch if I don't shape up. I will try to tone it down. On the other hand Chunk, and other Pan Am haters, try to keep it to some constructive criticism instead of the usual bashing we receive, and I will do the same. My wife slapped my hand and that's all it takes. Good 'ol ball and chain.

 

[chunk75]

I've really given up any Pan-o Am-o comments. You'll have to admit that....

 

[derg]

I understand, no worries!

I thought Pan Am was a pretty good operation when I went to visit a few summers ago. And I was trying to start a dialogue with management over there so they could come put out some of the fires on the boards but it just didn't work out.

BTW, my wife hates the forums too! These things are high maintenance!

 

[Guest]

Don't know how long you been married and I have never been married but I imagine after a while the couch is a preferred place to sleep. So post away my man!

Trying to figure out whether Airnet would be a good move or not. You get tons of multi, twin, PIC, high performance, complex,IMC, IFR time. But can you get to the regionals any faster than if you just stay at pan am and instruct? The quality of time is much better and you probably end up a better pilot with real world skills, but do you lose your network? And would it even matter with all that experience?

 

[guido161st]

Yeah Doug- I remember when you came to Pan Am. The person that gave you the tour was my instructor at the time. You gave Pan Am such a good write up that they gave him Diamondback tickets! Anybody can fall in love with that place after a visit. It's sticking around that will make you understand the problems

 

[chunk75]

unsat,

You'll make plenty of network connections at Airnet. I'd definately go there over instructing (at ANY school) if it was an even choice.

Chunk

 

[Billybob]

Now that's good humor: Pan Am Pilots know "twice as much". I hate to tell you spanky, but where you get it doesn't matter a whole lot, but hey, that's just from the airlines themselves. Want to test it? Then give them a call and quit buying all of Pan Ams BS! I came from an FBO and have just as much training (actually more) than Pan Am privates - and besides, a good candidate is going to make it no matter what route he/she chooses. Or wait, are you still enamored by the "career pilot counselors" who have never seen the inside of an RJ or any 121 airplane? Let's go further, have these people even flown 135? Then let's go on to the admin. dept.. How many of these people have airline experience? Hmmm, other than one Assistant Chief with a whole year in a regional (gee, I wonder why only a year?), there ain't a whole lot of "airline" experience in the self-described "airline school." But hey, you're probably like me and got sucked into the marketing and, one day, you may actually get it.

 

[E7B]

I hate to bring you out of your fictional world Billybob, but someone has to do it. Yes, it is true that the airlines don’t care where the ratings were acquired from as long as you have them. And there is nothing wrong at all with the FBO route, but you can’t dispute the fact that Pan Am is a faster route to the airlines. That’s just reality, and all the recent hires are proving it. The latest Chautauqua hire went online right away after completing the program and instructed for 11 months to gain a total of 1300 hours. He’s now an airline pilot having spent less than 2 years at Pan Am.

It’s quite humorous how the bashers keep coming up with the biggest problems at Pan Am as the “admin” and the “career pilot counselors”. It’s funny because as a student and instructor in “FLIGHT OPERATIONS”, you spend a daily average of, oh, approximately, ZERO percent of your time with that side of the company.

So let’s talk about the Pan Am instructors, its pretty much a non-argument that they are extremely impressive when it comes to knowledge level, and skills. Even the bashers who actually attended Pan Am agree the training they received was top-notch. Why they’re bashing is more of an interesting subject, especially when they’re instructors from other schools…

And let’s talk about pilots who have flown 121 as well. We have had many of them come here while they where on furlough to instruct in flight and ground operations. Syllabuses have been re-tailored based on real world knowledge that these guys brought to the table (especially the ACE program). So even though a lot of these pilots are gone now, the program has been tweaked and refined to reflect the actual airline environment.

Sorry to sound like a marketer, but it sounds like Pan Am grads ARE actually “getting it”. If you mean getting hired by the airlines.

 

[casaosa]

Hey all...Doug I might have missed it but did you go to Phoenix or Ft Pierce campus for your "tour" ??? Be quite interested to know, email my address if you so desire....
E7B, you are a good marketer for PAIFA as I was trying to do the same. It's easy to bash and blame others rather than taking responsibility for your own actions as so many tend to do. I feel that even tho there are problems that need to be fixed within the corperation, we won't be the ones to fix them. Yes we can talk and discuss but until the administration, Management, Upper Management realizes this and starts at ground zero to hear the problems and maybe fix the problems, there will always be complaints. But isn't that true of all of corperate America???? I am going to try to be politically correct here....if I step on Admin. toes, sorry in advance. But, I still feel that the instructors that we have are the best. They care about their students because their students are a reflection upon them. If their students fail, they too fail. I have the utmost respect for all instructors and students there. Everyday I see the excitement, the disappointment, the frustration in their faces....it may sound stupid, but, because I care, I feel these emotions with them. When they don't pass their check I hurt for them. When they do...I am right there cheering. I love seeing these guys pass and becoming CFI's and working along side with me. I love it when they get airline jobs but I hate it because I have to say goodbye to them. In one year, I have said good bye to quite a few people!!!!! I have never ever, met a better bunch of people. Including all the KLM kids that I have basically watched "grow up." But, and this is where the toe stepping is going to come in - the caring might stop there because after that, PAIFA is a business, it's out there to make a profit just like any other business. Nothing wrong with that and I am not saying that noone else there cares, it's just everyones priorities are different. It would be eutopia, if everything worked like a well cogged wheel, where we all worked so well side by side, had the same goals, insights that we all cared about people and lives and not just profits or business but as we all know, it isn't like that and that is why we are in the positions we choose to be.
Which brings me to my final conclusion.... (I know, finally!!!)...as I said in probably my first message, I knew admin. read these forums, but today it was brought to my attention first hand and substainciated.(?).....and although I was told I am free to voice my opinion, it would probably be in my best interest to maybe try to keep my mouth shut for awhile!!!! I do have a tendency to insert foot first.....at least I know my inadequencies!!! Good luck guys and I will still be big sister watching, believe me!!!!

 

[Billybob]

Gee golly, thanks for the wake up! What I'm trying to say is that there are some serious communication issues going on - in more ways than one. Rather than just going to the students and asking how everyone is doing or even doing in-depth interviews, they threaten deleterious "career" impacts for criticism. What is not realized is that a proactive stance would destroy a lot of small problems before they become large problems. Instead, things boil over and people leave the school with a bad taste, and they spread that bad taste throughout the training community. Additionally, the smell of the smoke spreads to the neighbors and on down the line. From what I've seen is the aviation community is way too small to forget what the customer is about. The simple fact of the matter is that Pan Am is one way to the airlines, and so is Aviator, EARU, etc... As for the quickest, why don't you wait a year and see how many hours you have in your logbook?When it's all said and done, it's the hours that matter most. IF PAIFA is the fastest, then what I don't get is the fact that there are instructors who have been around over a year on the payroll that only have 700 to 800 total hours - which equates to about 500 hours of dual given per year. Hmmm. Funny, but the FBO instructors that I know are getting that many (and some a lot more) - and what's even stranger, is that they are all stepping nicely into RJs, Lears, and Citations at anywhere from 1,500 to 1,800 hours (with one proud little pilot in the right seat of a Lear at 400 hours) - the same number of hours as the Pan Am people I know that got hired. Just a thought.

 

[panampilot]

[ QUOTE ]
IF PAIFA is the fastest, then what I don't get is the fact that there are instructors who have been around over a year on the payroll that only have 700 to 800 total hours - which equates to about 500 hours of dual given per year.

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I have one theory as to why this is. First of all I don't think it has anything to do with Pan Am. I know of a couple of instructors who just don't work hard. That doesn't mean they aren't good instructors, it just means they take a lot of vacations or have time off. As was referenced above an instructor here just got hired by Chataqua and he built over 900 hundred dual given hours in 11 months. That seems pretty fast to me and he worked his tail off. So, don't blame Pan Am for slow building of hours because it is completely up to the instructor on how hard they want to work.

 

[TDK90]

HEY...E7B, you haven't answered my question from another thread...You need to stop posting if you're trying to deceive us

"E7B, I think you may have outed yourself...Can we assume that you now admit that you are not a student or instructor at the school. If not, what is your function and why did you find it neccessary to pretend you were a student. Your credibility is zero if you entered this debate with the intent to deceive other users."