Possible to be Too Cautious/Conservative?

[barchaim]

Good morning everyone. I felt like this might be the right place to post this to ask a bunch of CFIs. You can delete or move it to another place if its not appropriate.

I'm a new flight student, a little under 20 hours flight time. Yesterday for my scheduled flight lesson, conditions were ok to fly in (technically). We had broken at 3000 ft, visibility 6 sm, with winds from 270 at 22 kts gusting to 29, and some very light rain. The runway we use is 26. These were stronger winds than I've flown in so far

Instructor: "So should we fly today?"
Me: "Well it's within the crosswind max for our plane, but its not great weather. If I was flying on my own, I probably wouldn't fly. I'd just wait for weather to clear up a bit or go the next day. Then again I don't have a ton of experience yet."
Instructor: "So what's your call?"
Me: "No, I'd rather not today. What do you think?"
Instructor: "I think that's an ok call. This is just below my own personal minimums, and I worry about the fresh rain on the runway. I think you could handle the wind. (we're doing a lot of pattern practice right now) There's only one other plane up there flying in the pattern anyways, so its ok to just do a ground today instead."

((another instructor returns from his flight in the middle of our ground lesson)

Other instructor: "What? You didn't fly today? Why not? It was fine out there!" ((womp womp))

My questions for the group here are a few:

(1) How far should I push myself, at this point of training, to experience flying in more adverse weather conditions?
(2) How will I find out my own personal minimums without flying in conditions that are adverse?
(3) Is it possible to be too cautious or conservative in my training?
(4) Am I overthinking this?

My own instructor wants me to be the one making these decisions, because he wants me to practice the thought process and decision making, as well as practicing taking a good look at the weather on a regular basis. There's a little bug in the back of my head saying I should have flown yesterday to experience it, then there was another little bug saying not to.

I'd love to hear any thoughts, insights, etc. for a new student pilot finding his wings. Thanks!

 

[Roger Roger]

It’s definitely a balancing act because at your stage going out when it’s too gnarly is going to be unproductive for your learning, but as you say never pushing yourself will also stunt your learning. Ultimately with only 20-some hours your CFI should be feeling it out and guide you to the best decision for you and your training, unfortunately with the way life is as a CFI there are often outside factors that influence their decision one way or the other.

 

[DE727UPS]

With that ceiling and vis I wouldn't be going anywhere far but would have been fine to stay in the pattern. Would be a good confidence builder for you if it was a bit bumpy. If there is a crosswind runway you could have tried a few landings. If the CFI isn't comfortable with the winds, though, then no big deal. Everyone is different.

 

[N826AW]

Ceilings and visibility are fine for pattern work. But I wouldn't fly in those winds.

 

[killbilly]

One of the first things I always told my students: beware of dogmas in aviation. The answer to most questions is, "It depends."

So in the given scenario, my answer about going up is "It depends."

At 20 hours of flight time I'd like to think I'd have a sense of the student's current state and ability to learn in those conditions. If the conditions would create too much anxiety for learning, then I'd likely not fly and do a ground lesson; systems always seem to get short shrift anyway, so here's a good time to work on them.

But I've had some students where they'd really relish working with those conditions, even if we're nearer the margins. If anxiety ramps up for the student, or the conditions deteriorate, we simply cut the flying portion short, land and debrief. "Pretty wild how much faster the downwind happens, huh?/Notice how it's a little easier to land with just flaps 10 and a few more knots of airspeed" etc....

I am/was a big believer in stretching the student as much as practical....the key there is the word 'practical' - if I can create a learning environment for the student, I will, and I will absolutely not push them past the point of being unable to learn. And, yeah, sometimes you gotta experiment to find where that point is, especially as you progress because it's a moving target.

You and I have already spoken about how important that student/instructor relationship is, so understand that I would never fault the decision you guys made or how and why you made it; I'm simply saying that there are a lot of moving parts that go into these decisions, and there is no one-size-fits-all answer to your original question.

As I said: it depends.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

(4) Am I overthinking this?

Everything @killbilly said. And no, you aren't overthinking it. It's a good question.

 

[form810]

Good morning everyone. I felt like this might be the right place to post this to ask a bunch of CFIs. You can delete or move it to another place if its not appropriate.

I'm a new flight student, a little under 20 hours flight time. Yesterday for my scheduled flight lesson, conditions were ok to fly in (technically). We had broken at 3000 ft, visibility 6 sm, with winds from 270 at 22 kts gusting to 29, and some very light rain. The runway we use is 26. These were stronger winds than I've flown in so far

Instructor: "So should we fly today?"
Me: "Well it's within the crosswind max for our plane, but its not great weather. If I was flying on my own, I probably wouldn't fly. I'd just wait for weather to clear up a bit or go the next day. Then again I don't have a ton of experience yet."
Instructor: "So what's your call?"
Me: "No, I'd rather not today. What do you think?"
Instructor: "I think that's an ok call. This is just below my own personal minimums, and I worry about the fresh rain on the runway. I think you could handle the wind. (we're doing a lot of pattern practice right now) There's only one other plane up there flying in the pattern anyways, so its ok to just do a ground today instead."

((another instructor returns from his flight in the middle of our ground lesson)

Other instructor: "What? You didn't fly today? Why not? It was fine out there!" ((womp womp))

My questions for the group here are a few:

(1) How far should I push myself, at this point of training, to experience flying in more adverse weather conditions?
(2) How will I find out my own personal minimums without flying in conditions that are adverse?
(3) Is it possible to be too cautious or conservative in my training?
(4) Am I overthinking this?

My own instructor wants me to be the one making these decisions, because he wants me to practice the thought process and decision making, as well as practicing taking a good look at the weather on a regular basis. There's a little bug in the back of my head saying I should have flown yesterday to experience it, then there was another little bug saying not to.

I'd love to hear any thoughts, insights, etc. for a new student pilot finding his wings. Thanks!

IMO, you're good. Always listen to your "little voice"... always.

I'm sure it has happened (because, according to the Principle of Plenitude, everything that can happen, does), but it is exceedingly rare to die or kill others from being cautious. Not being considerate and cautious, because "that's just what we do around here", or some fit of adrenaline? Yeah, that has caused many, many, many disasters, catastrophes, meltdowns, fails... etc.

Risk = probability of event occurring x effect of event if event occurs. Act accordingly. And continue to listen to that "little voice" in your ear. YOU are the PIC; it's YOUR decision.

 

[ppragman]

My first instinct is to agree with what @killbilly said. But I'll add my own 2 cents as well.

Yes, it is possible to be too cautious and too conservative as you are learning. The most conservative and risk averse thing to do is never go fly at all. The safest airline is the one that never flies, the safest pilot is the one that cannot leave the ground. You do need to learn to push yourself and expand your comfort zone as you learn to fly, however, I would argue that at 20 hours, this is not the time to push yourself in terms of judgment simply because you do not know what you don't know.

Still, different instructors have different confidences and comfort levels. You should fly with more than one instructor to get a taste of the differences in styles and risk tolerances. You can learn from everyone, even if the thing you learn is "wow, that dude is crazy! I'm never flying with him again."

The wind was straight down the runway more or less, so I don't think this would provide any major challenges to controllability, but I think at first glance this is very important test that your instructor (not you) did not pass. He or she should be trying to grow your capabilities as an airman and (frankly) a little water (as long as it's not a lot) on the runway should be no problem unless you're really bad at maintaining directional control on the runway. Even so, with the wind right down the runway, you should be fine. Soon you're going to be kicked out to go and fly cross countries all by your lonesome. If you leave the airport and the wind has an unforecasted increase while you're out tooling around what are you going to do? If a light rainshower pops up and dumps a sheen of water on your destination, what are you going to do? Turn around? What if it happens in both places? I guess that is fine, but a better time to learn and experience that would be under the watchful eye of your instructor. You could learn that a little wind down the runway and a little rain on it might even make your landings smoother. What better time to practice things that stretch your comfort zone in general than when you've got adult supervision.

Your job right now is to soak up as much aviation wisdom as you can at the same time that you learn the fundamentals of the craft. I don't know where you're training at, but conditions do matter, and you should be exposed to more than just ideal weather.

We should ask ourselves (as @form810 said) what the "risks" really are. Ok, so, what are the risks associated with wind right down the runway and a little bit of water on the runway? What could happen? I guess you might flat spot a tire I suppose? But if that's the case you should even be on the brakes really during touch and goes. Or if you're one of those people who adds like 30 knots to your approach speed in a Cessna when there's gusts you might run into issues (please don't do this), I don't know the full context; regardless, I don't know if this was the right call and the other CFI is probably onto something.

 

[Hacker15e]

Yes, it is possible to be too cautious and too conservative as you are learning as a pilot.

100% agree, and with a little tweak.

Airmanship and judgment, unfortunately, cannot be learned in a classroom -- they are a direct result of personal experience and observed experiences.

Already in much of GA there is a "pad to the pad to the pad" of the decisionmaking envelope for GA pilots. It is important to understand what *actual* operating limitations are, rather than believing that the padded buffer to those actual limitations is the actual limitation.

For most of what we do in the GA community the most conservative answer is the best one, but if that were really true we would never start an engine, turn a prop, or turn a wheel.

There is something to be said for having personal minimums and adhering to them...but only if you've logically established those minimums based on your personal (and current!) level of experience and skill. If you never re-assess your capabilities by stepping outside those personal limits you will never develop and mature as an aviator.

 

[ppragman]

Airmanship and judgment, unfortunately, cannot be learned in a classroom -- they are a direct result of personal experience and observed experiences.

Totally and that's a fair take, you can learn how to learn about airmanship and judgment through books and in the classroom, but at some point you have to go out and actually...you know... fly the • airplane.

Already in much of GA there is a "pad to the pad to the pad" of the decisionmaking envelope for GA pilots. It is important to understand what *actual* operating limitations are, rather than believing that the padded buffer to those actual limitations is the actual limitation.

Right, and with time you eventually whittle down the inherent utility of GA to nothing if you pad the pad with the pad. Also - and this is just my probably unpopular opinion - in the airplane the limitations you are most effected by differ from flight to flight but generally are far less than the true capability of the machine at any time. The ultimate limit in any circumstances is what the laws of physics permit. Obviously, you cannot break those, but after that there are the regulatory limits, then finally, the limits to what you are capable of as an aviator nested down underneath it all. Often those change a lot and never remain the same. Part of learning your limits means going out and finding them unfortunately.

If you never grow what you are capable of, you'll never be in a position where you'll run up against those regulatory and physical limits, but you'll never grow as an airman, you'll never utilize the machine to the best of it's capabilities, and you'll miss out on a lot of really good experience - both professionally and personally. If the physical limit of the airplane a max gross takeoff weight of 8807lbs, the boss is not going to be happy if you say, "well, I never fly at gross - I have a personal limit of 10% under." Similarly, from a weather standpoint, if you never depart on flights when the weather gets within 100' of whatever arbitrary limit you've defined, expect to get fired.

Obviously professional flying isn't the same as getting your private license, but if OP wants to be a professional, being able use the equipment to the maximum permissible and safe extent is critical. But to stretch an analogy (probably past it's breaking point), imagine a carpenter being unwilling to use a hammer when the board was un-sanded or a doctor who only would practice medicine on healthy patients. My wife is a nurse - I don't think she would ever think about not-rendering aid because the patient had TB. She'd gown up, put on the appropriate PPE, and go in and do what she had to do. That's not bravado, overconfidence, or anything like that - it's professionalism.

There is something to be said for having personal minimums and adhering to them...but only if you've logically established those minimums based on your personal (and current!) level of experience and skill. If you never re-assess your capabilities by stepping outside those personal limits you will never develop and mature as an aviator.

Completely and utterly agree. Risk management is not a one-and-done sort of thing, it has to be iterative.

As I've been working on my masters a principle point of retrospective irritation has been how many policies and procedures I've seen over the years that were based entirely on "what management thought was scary" and not on the actual numbers and reality. Developing your personal minima should be an iterative process, you should be re-evaluating them all the time, and rather than having them based on "this felt scary" they should be based on whether there was actual danger or not too.

I have seen shops where we said, "we don't fly into strips shorter than X" even though the airplane was perfectly capable of much much less. Why? Because someone said so? Because someone thought it was risky? We had enough room to overshoot half of the runway and still land with twice the book landing distance. Was that situation actually risky? No - but we just weren't accustomed to it and someone said "this is the best practice." If you are going to set limits for yourself or your organization as a matter of policy, you should <old man hat on> damn well have an arguable and quantitative reason for why something can be considered risky.

On top of that, what do you do if your personal minima change during the flight? I've definitely started flights where I was fine, got a few hours into them and been like, "oh wow, maybe I shouldn't have done this, I am wayyyyyy to tired to be out here right now." Do I adhere to the same personal minima I set on the ground? Of course not. The best call (in my opinion) at that time is to simply say, "oh, well I'm not going to push as hard" or even (depending on the circumstances) turn around and fly back home. Conversely, I've gone out on flights where I've gotten back and said, "man that was not nearly as death-defying as I thought it was going to be." That should be a really good indicator that you need to adjust your risk management strategy, you're missing something.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Yes, it is possible to be too cautious and too conservative as you are learning. The most conservative and risk averse thing to do is never go fly at all. The safest airline is the one that never flies, the safest pilot is the one that cannot leave the ground. You do need to learn to push yourself and expand your comfort zone as you learn to fly, however, I would argue that at 20 hours, this is not the time to push yourself in terms of judgment simply because you do not know what you don't know.

In my experience with students, the ones willing to make mistakes and learn from them progress a lot faster than students that try to do everything perfectly the first time.

 

[ppragman]

In my experience with students, the ones willing to make mistakes and learn from them progress a lot faster than students that try to do everything perfectly the first time.

qft

 

[barchaim]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. Much appreciated!

 

[///AMG]

In my experience with students, the ones willing to make mistakes and learn from them progress a lot faster than students that try to do everything perfectly the first time.

Over the year of being a student and then instructor, and then back and forth again many times, I have found that there is never a “good” time to ask stupid questions. The best instructors can foster an environment where a guy/gal isn’t afraid to ask what they might, themselves, deem a “stupid” question, otherwise known as “something i think i already should know but have been too afraid to ask, lest i look stupid/unprepared”. I say this because it is in line with the mentality of being able to make mistakes and learn from them.

 

[form810]

Over the year of being a student and then instructor, and then back and forth again many times, I have found that there is never a “good” time to ask stupid questions. The best instructors can foster an environment where a guy/gal isn’t afraid to ask what they might, themselves, deem a “stupid” question, otherwise known as “something i think i already should know but have been too afraid to ask, lest i look stupid/unprepared”. I say this because it is in line with the mentality of being able to make mistakes and learn from them.

Questions should be encouraged. Especially questions that clarify the underlying concepts being investigated. The picayune stuff -feeds/speeds, etc. can readily and easily be found in manuals). Sadly, on many occasions I've witnessed instructors who, just hoop jumping toward their next "real" job, know very little more than their students, sometimes less (at least regarding the underlying theories that inform the entire endeavor). Those "instructors" themselves are unable to differentiate between a stupid question and broad, generally enlightening, smart question.

I agree that there is never a good time to ask stupid question. However, we have kind of a multi-meta level problem going on now. Because they, themselves, were never properly broadly educated in any domain - many students and many "instructors" don't even know what a stupid question is And, I suspect that's not for lack of practice asking them.