Pan Am student whines about whiners
- Thread starter pinot
- Start date
Pinot you compromised the site by pretty much identifying Mav in a previous post. As far as the stage check pilots, I looked and there are 5 that I can see right away [including the ACE instructors and two ladies]. I gave up counting the number of CFIs on line that were students when I was there when I got to 10. I'm not sure where you're going with this, there's nothing wrong with being an instructor for a couple of years, what is wrong is giving the impression that Pan Am students are getting hired left and right without spending some serious time building hours. As far as the average Pan Am student knowing more than the FBO pilot that's pretty insulting to the thousands of dedicated and knowledgeble CFIs out there, was that your intent? You might be book smart but can you fly , by the way, just how much experience do you have? Do you think you might be able to answer that simple question without insulting me or anyone else?
guido161st
New Member
Yeah don't even start with the whole "Pan Am pilots are way better than FBO pilots" thing. That's bull. I trained at Pan Am and I'd like to think of myself as a pretty good pilot. Don't you think I would teach on to others at an FBO exactly what I learned from Pan Am? Like I said a million times- it's all about what you put into it- and your case, how much money you put into it.
Now this is funny. I ID’d Mav from his own profile on this board where he said he works at Sawyer. So I guess he actually comprised the site? VFT, you just checked the schedule huh? It’s been offline for a week now. DOH, caught in a lie (typical of a Pan Am complainer), that hurts buddy. You are only proving that I am right about all of this. Thanks for thinking I’m book smart, I prefer the choose your own ending series.
I am in now way putting down FBO’s like you are putting down Pan Am. I am only defending my school from attacks from proven liars and saying Pan Am is a quicker route to the airlines if that is your goal.
I am in now way putting down FBO’s like you are putting down Pan Am. I am only defending my school from attacks from proven liars and saying Pan Am is a quicker route to the airlines if that is your goal.
panampilot
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
it's up on the wall...
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought you no longer went to Pan Am. How did you check on the wall if you no longer go here?
it's up on the wall...
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought you no longer went to Pan Am. How did you check on the wall if you no longer go here?
Mavmb
Well-Known Member
Well Pinot, you're welcome to come on here and say anything you want, just like anyone else. That's the beauty of this website.
However, I'm really not surprised at all by any of your comments. When people start at a new school, they always love it. I know I did when I was there. New uniforms, hardly any money spent, brand new airplanes, and an estimate that I would be able to learn an instrument rating in six weeks. Who wouldn't like starting out that way at any school?
I moved all the way across the country to attend Pan Am two years ago. However, there was no "moral cess pool" ( u call this forum that, I call it truth) or anything written about Pan Am anywhere. If I would have had access to the personal stories everybody has written, I wouldn't have wasted money and time at Pan Am.
Anyway, I digress, now back to the truth. Pinot, if you would look around a bit you would find schools that would give you better training, better instruction, and a much faster pace than Pan Am. And that happens to be almost any school out there. I won't list the millions of reasons on here why that's all true. Other former Pan Amers have already done that and so have I over and over again in past posts. If you disagree with what I say though, write back and I can give you the facts if you're willing to listen to them.
And lastly, yes, my name is Mike Brenner. Doug said all identities are secret, and that is true. I chose to identify myself, I was never made to. But I didn't think twice about posting my name and why should I? Such a thing never even occured to me.
So Pinot, if you want, go ahead and tell us what you like about Pan Am. However, I think you should heed the advice of those who have already been through the program and have seen it all -- especially after we finally got out of Pan Am and realized how much we were hurting our careers by staying there.
ANd PS -- just a very quick example, if I were still at Pan Am, I would have spent an extra 30 grand and would probably just now be getting my CFI, instead of being a CFI at my FBO and having ex Pan Am students coming into to see me for instruction. Now keep in mind they used to be ahead of me when I was at Pan Am! That alone should tell you something is definitely wrong at Pan Am. To me, it's only the tip of the iceberg as far as that place goes though. So good luck Pinot, and like I said before, I'd be more interested to hear what you say about Pan Am after you've tried to get one or two ratings there.
However, I'm really not surprised at all by any of your comments. When people start at a new school, they always love it. I know I did when I was there. New uniforms, hardly any money spent, brand new airplanes, and an estimate that I would be able to learn an instrument rating in six weeks. Who wouldn't like starting out that way at any school?
I moved all the way across the country to attend Pan Am two years ago. However, there was no "moral cess pool" ( u call this forum that, I call it truth) or anything written about Pan Am anywhere. If I would have had access to the personal stories everybody has written, I wouldn't have wasted money and time at Pan Am.
Anyway, I digress, now back to the truth. Pinot, if you would look around a bit you would find schools that would give you better training, better instruction, and a much faster pace than Pan Am. And that happens to be almost any school out there. I won't list the millions of reasons on here why that's all true. Other former Pan Amers have already done that and so have I over and over again in past posts. If you disagree with what I say though, write back and I can give you the facts if you're willing to listen to them.
And lastly, yes, my name is Mike Brenner. Doug said all identities are secret, and that is true. I chose to identify myself, I was never made to. But I didn't think twice about posting my name and why should I? Such a thing never even occured to me.
So Pinot, if you want, go ahead and tell us what you like about Pan Am. However, I think you should heed the advice of those who have already been through the program and have seen it all -- especially after we finally got out of Pan Am and realized how much we were hurting our careers by staying there.
ANd PS -- just a very quick example, if I were still at Pan Am, I would have spent an extra 30 grand and would probably just now be getting my CFI, instead of being a CFI at my FBO and having ex Pan Am students coming into to see me for instruction. Now keep in mind they used to be ahead of me when I was at Pan Am! That alone should tell you something is definitely wrong at Pan Am. To me, it's only the tip of the iceberg as far as that place goes though. So good luck Pinot, and like I said before, I'd be more interested to hear what you say about Pan Am after you've tried to get one or two ratings there.
guido161st
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
DOH, caught in a lie (typical of a Pan Am complainer),
[/ QUOTE ]
How so? How did we get labeled as liars?
[ QUOTE ]
I am in now way putting down FBO’s like you are putting down Pan Am. I am only defending my school from attacks from proven liars and saying Pan Am is a quicker route to the airlines if that is your goal.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again with the liar stuff. If you had a specific FBO to put down then that's one thing. But you are saying FBO's in general produce less quality pilots than Pan Am. We are talking about a specific school- with specific problems- that should be addressed which is the point of these forums. If you want to defend your school- go ahead. Many other pepole have and there is nothing wrong with that. But do it by saying why you like Pan Am- and why you think it's a good school- like perpetual did a few posts up. Sure you're gonna get responses that will tell you that you're wrong and then a pissing match will start and yadda yadda. But people will get the idea. I must say one thing- I haven't seen anyone able to defend the way Pan Am has the order of there training set up now- what's up with that? It's obvious this school cares nothing about the students. So at least the students could have some say in what goes on. Pinot- what rating are you working on and how long have you been there. And can one of you current students ( in a nice way!) please tell me the benifits of this ACE program that costs as much as some type ratings? Don't give me the usual "it's good CRM training"- I'm not saying it's a useless program- I bet it's actually fun as hell. But where can you justify the price??
DOH, caught in a lie (typical of a Pan Am complainer),
[/ QUOTE ]
How so? How did we get labeled as liars?
[ QUOTE ]
I am in now way putting down FBO’s like you are putting down Pan Am. I am only defending my school from attacks from proven liars and saying Pan Am is a quicker route to the airlines if that is your goal.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again with the liar stuff. If you had a specific FBO to put down then that's one thing. But you are saying FBO's in general produce less quality pilots than Pan Am. We are talking about a specific school- with specific problems- that should be addressed which is the point of these forums. If you want to defend your school- go ahead. Many other pepole have and there is nothing wrong with that. But do it by saying why you like Pan Am- and why you think it's a good school- like perpetual did a few posts up. Sure you're gonna get responses that will tell you that you're wrong and then a pissing match will start and yadda yadda. But people will get the idea. I must say one thing- I haven't seen anyone able to defend the way Pan Am has the order of there training set up now- what's up with that? It's obvious this school cares nothing about the students. So at least the students could have some say in what goes on. Pinot- what rating are you working on and how long have you been there. And can one of you current students ( in a nice way!) please tell me the benifits of this ACE program that costs as much as some type ratings? Don't give me the usual "it's good CRM training"- I'm not saying it's a useless program- I bet it's actually fun as hell. But where can you justify the price??
chunk75
Well-Known Member
Actually Pinot,
That person over at flightinfo wrote a nasty personal note about the hiring captain over at ASA. He later went back and edited it. Maybe, if he doesn't get out of the pool, that's the reason. Not because he held views that others didn't like.
Got spine?
Chunk
That person over at flightinfo wrote a nasty personal note about the hiring captain over at ASA. He later went back and edited it. Maybe, if he doesn't get out of the pool, that's the reason. Not because he held views that others didn't like.
Got spine?
Chunk
panampilot
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Got spine?
[/ QUOTE ]
Chunk I'm not going to start it up with you again, but is this kind of comment really called for? I haven't been the best behaved here lately either but come on now.
Got spine?
[/ QUOTE ]
Chunk I'm not going to start it up with you again, but is this kind of comment really called for? I haven't been the best behaved here lately either but come on now.
I feel that there are better ways in which to disseminate the following information, but this post will have to suffice. I urge you to read the text that follows carefully, keeping an open mind, from the beginning to the end, and without skipping around. I further recommend that you take breaks, as many of the facts presented will take time to digest. Brrrr! It sends chills down my spine just thinking about that. To begin at the beginning would take to long, so let us cut to the chase: Pan Am is an excellent flight school. That's all I really have time now to write for now. If you want to get more insight into the Pan Am student and instructor mentality, though, then study the details of our convictions. Try to see the big picture: It will really amaze you. It will take your breath away. And it will convince you that our zeal for victory is neurotic and poisonous to young minds, while being respectful to Western values and achievements. Sociologists might point out that that which is built inextricably into the laws of the universe cannot be totally asinine. I, for one, agree with the above assessment. Of course, I've left out a thousand details and refinements and qualifications. I have mentioned that this cannot go on much longer, but I've ignored stoicism altogether. I've simply pointed out one key fact: A good attitude is a valuable asset in this business.
Looking forward to flying again. Onwards and upwards -P
Looking forward to flying again. Onwards and upwards -P
chunk75
Well-Known Member
Dude,
Back off. You're going to bitch and whine no matter what I say. If you'll notice, I'm not making any comments about your school....
The guy made a thinly veiled threat and used a flightinfo thread that I am very aware of to backhimself up. He suggests we shouldn't state our true opinions because we might lose jobs. Well, that sounds pretty spineless. Don't make personal attacks of hiring captains...good point. Especially when she's nice, but beyond that....grow a pair. Say what you think within the bounds of good taste.
I find it quite ironic that the guy following me around these boards making personal attacks on me has issues with me saying "Got Spine?" Dude, you called me a disgusting lowlife for no reason, so you don't have a leg to stand on, morally.
Back off. You're going to bitch and whine no matter what I say. If you'll notice, I'm not making any comments about your school....
The guy made a thinly veiled threat and used a flightinfo thread that I am very aware of to backhimself up. He suggests we shouldn't state our true opinions because we might lose jobs. Well, that sounds pretty spineless. Don't make personal attacks of hiring captains...good point. Especially when she's nice, but beyond that....grow a pair. Say what you think within the bounds of good taste.
I find it quite ironic that the guy following me around these boards making personal attacks on me has issues with me saying "Got Spine?" Dude, you called me a disgusting lowlife for no reason, so you don't have a leg to stand on, morally.
[ QUOTE ]
Prozac for everyone.
The internet is what you make it.
You can use online aviation forums to share insider information or you can use them like a gang of kindergarteners, fighting over the last tricycle.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doug, you ought to write more with language like that--colorful but clear and effective! Maybe a third career after pilot and webmaster
Prozac for everyone.
The internet is what you make it.
You can use online aviation forums to share insider information or you can use them like a gang of kindergarteners, fighting over the last tricycle.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doug, you ought to write more with language like that--colorful but clear and effective! Maybe a third career after pilot and webmaster
perpetual
Well-Known Member
Pinot:
I do not know how you view yourself, but an overall impression
that myself and others are possibly agreeing on is the stance that
you sir, may infact be an idiot.
Why do you go on these long winded tirades about how pan am
is so great, and yet give no reference upon which to those
accomplishments reflect?
Now, for sake of clearity and understanding: How long have you
been at Pan Am, and what ratings have you earned there?
Also, How much money and time have you thus far spent Earning those ratings?
You see the point of My post is to obviously get past the
little arguments that you and the others are having,
and present YOUR case with facts.
Its widely (and painfully obvious) that everyone will have a "different"
experience at xyz flight school. I hope that YOU can clarify to us
"what makes it so great" for you.
I do not know how you view yourself, but an overall impression
that myself and others are possibly agreeing on is the stance that
you sir, may infact be an idiot.
Why do you go on these long winded tirades about how pan am
is so great, and yet give no reference upon which to those
accomplishments reflect?
Now, for sake of clearity and understanding: How long have you
been at Pan Am, and what ratings have you earned there?
Also, How much money and time have you thus far spent Earning those ratings?
You see the point of My post is to obviously get past the
little arguments that you and the others are having,
and present YOUR case with facts.
Its widely (and painfully obvious) that everyone will have a "different"
experience at xyz flight school. I hope that YOU can clarify to us
"what makes it so great" for you.
yankee_one
New Member
Doug... If you ever need some extra cash to play with,you should consider selling the rights to this thread to the Jerry Springer show!!!
panampilot
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
the guy following me around these boards making personal attacks
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all Chunk, I don't follow you around these boards I'm actually making good use of time unlike yourself who has how many posts at JC? I have a life. I also mentioned in the above post I made that I haven't been as behaved as I should have been. I took some cheap shots at you that I believe were waranted, although probably not in good taste.
You took a cheap shot at a guy here and I called you on it, just like you get on me for saying things I shouldn't. Cool down a little. I have just come to realize it is your sole purpose in life to bash everything that you don't agree with instead of just politely keeping quiet. Try being positive on this website instead of getting your panties all in a wad.
the guy following me around these boards making personal attacks
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all Chunk, I don't follow you around these boards I'm actually making good use of time unlike yourself who has how many posts at JC? I have a life. I also mentioned in the above post I made that I haven't been as behaved as I should have been. I took some cheap shots at you that I believe were waranted, although probably not in good taste.
You took a cheap shot at a guy here and I called you on it, just like you get on me for saying things I shouldn't. Cool down a little. I have just come to realize it is your sole purpose in life to bash everything that you don't agree with instead of just politely keeping quiet. Try being positive on this website instead of getting your panties all in a wad.
It seems this Pan Am forum has become a place where student’s and instructors from other schools come to talk trash about Pan Am. They say their here just answering questions, but I haven’t see any questions their answering, just a constant barrage of garbage. The garbage barrage if you will.
The following is a post from a current avid complainer of Pan Am while he was going there. While he was there he thought his instruction was excellent. But now that’s he somewhere else, the extra training time required at Pan Am is a rip off because you can get the ratings faster and cheaper at an FBO. Read on gentle reader and be amazed.
POST FROM PERPETUAL DATED JUNE 30:
Anyway, to the point as many have pointed.
THE AMOUNT YOU PUT INTO IT = THE AMOUNT YOU GET OUT.
The only problems I have seen thus far, are scheduling descrepencies, and INSTRUCTOR PREFERENCES.
You see I have learned a great Deal from pan am,(knowledge via text book studies) and from my first intstructors.In addition, the students' (environment) are all great, everyone has been willing to help out anytime someone has a question. Its a good place to learn in a complete aviation environment.
prior to starting at Pan Am, I had been attending a Local FBO.
To make a comparison:
The FBO is very laid back, flying once maybe 2 times a week, and limited study. (instructor has multiple students, and only a few(3 instructors) of which to teach.
Pan Am is Flying 2wice a Day, along with a Ground School at night. An intracate level of knowledge is required here, as to set above the standard. (makes a better, (read more knowledgeable pilot) IMO of course.
With more knowledge, comes more safety awareness in my opionion.
END POST
Oh how the contradictions fly while your grounded.
Keephope and Mav: I won’t argue you can get ratings faster and cheaper at FBO’s. We have all read the FBO classified ads in the back of flying magazines guaranteeing ratings in minimum time for minimum money. And we’re all very proud of you for pointing that out here. But don’t tell me you get the same knowledge level as someone who puts in over twice as much time, busting their butt in an intense Pan Am program as the guy with the quick, in no-time rating. If your opinion is different than this, I’ll respect it, but frankly am not interested in hearing it here. Go to the FBO forum and pat yourself on the back for your rating acquiring accomplishment.
My argument is this: So now you have your ratings, but how are you going to get hired by an airline? After all, this is JetCareers, not Career CFI’s. I don’t see the FBO’s producing career airline pilots like the academies are. Pan Am is, that is a fact you cannot dispute. It takes you longer to get your ratings yes, an investment to be a better pilot. Then you go online as an instructor and build an average of 85 hours a month instructing. At the FBO’s, if you are lucky enough to get hired as a CFI, the national average is 25 hours a month (if you are averaging more than this at an FBO congratulations are in order. You make up for the other FBO’s doing less). And yes, the Pan Am students and CFI’s do know this is the place to be.
So the Pan Am grad is ready for the airlines after 8 months of instructing, while the FBO needs to instruct for over 2 years to get that amount of time. This more than offsets the amount of time in which you got your FBO pilot ratings, and you get a better education. And you actually end up airline ready at least a year earlier, again with academy training (where the airlines are hiring from). That one year faster could potentially lead to an extra year as a senior captain at a major. This could potentially lead to an extra $200,000 in your bank account. Now answer yourselves this, because you are here to answer questions. Is your cheaper and faster rating, actually cheaper and faster in the long run?
And Chunk: Why are you always coming in the Pan Am forum and starting trouble? You have enough trouble of your own over in your Flight Safety forum. A two year wait after completing the program before going online as a CFI? And yes, I think the Flight Safety program, like Pan Am’s, is top notch. But do you realize you could finish the program at FSI and a guy could come in to Pan Am with no previous flight experience, complete the program, go online as a CFI right away, build the hours, and be hired by an airline, and all before the FSI guy even started building hours as a CFI. This is fine if you are not in a hurry to start your airline career, and a perfectly acceptable sacrifice in order to attend your first school of choice. But you have other options besides putting down the Pan Am program (a program you have no first hand experience with) to try and build up Flight Safety.
Jeeerry! Jeeerry! Jeeerry!
The following is a post from a current avid complainer of Pan Am while he was going there. While he was there he thought his instruction was excellent. But now that’s he somewhere else, the extra training time required at Pan Am is a rip off because you can get the ratings faster and cheaper at an FBO. Read on gentle reader and be amazed.
POST FROM PERPETUAL DATED JUNE 30:
Anyway, to the point as many have pointed.
THE AMOUNT YOU PUT INTO IT = THE AMOUNT YOU GET OUT.
The only problems I have seen thus far, are scheduling descrepencies, and INSTRUCTOR PREFERENCES.
You see I have learned a great Deal from pan am,(knowledge via text book studies) and from my first intstructors.In addition, the students' (environment) are all great, everyone has been willing to help out anytime someone has a question. Its a good place to learn in a complete aviation environment.
prior to starting at Pan Am, I had been attending a Local FBO.
To make a comparison:
The FBO is very laid back, flying once maybe 2 times a week, and limited study. (instructor has multiple students, and only a few(3 instructors) of which to teach.
Pan Am is Flying 2wice a Day, along with a Ground School at night. An intracate level of knowledge is required here, as to set above the standard. (makes a better, (read more knowledgeable pilot) IMO of course.
With more knowledge, comes more safety awareness in my opionion.
END POST
Oh how the contradictions fly while your grounded.
Keephope and Mav: I won’t argue you can get ratings faster and cheaper at FBO’s. We have all read the FBO classified ads in the back of flying magazines guaranteeing ratings in minimum time for minimum money. And we’re all very proud of you for pointing that out here. But don’t tell me you get the same knowledge level as someone who puts in over twice as much time, busting their butt in an intense Pan Am program as the guy with the quick, in no-time rating. If your opinion is different than this, I’ll respect it, but frankly am not interested in hearing it here. Go to the FBO forum and pat yourself on the back for your rating acquiring accomplishment.
My argument is this: So now you have your ratings, but how are you going to get hired by an airline? After all, this is JetCareers, not Career CFI’s. I don’t see the FBO’s producing career airline pilots like the academies are. Pan Am is, that is a fact you cannot dispute. It takes you longer to get your ratings yes, an investment to be a better pilot. Then you go online as an instructor and build an average of 85 hours a month instructing. At the FBO’s, if you are lucky enough to get hired as a CFI, the national average is 25 hours a month (if you are averaging more than this at an FBO congratulations are in order. You make up for the other FBO’s doing less). And yes, the Pan Am students and CFI’s do know this is the place to be.
So the Pan Am grad is ready for the airlines after 8 months of instructing, while the FBO needs to instruct for over 2 years to get that amount of time. This more than offsets the amount of time in which you got your FBO pilot ratings, and you get a better education. And you actually end up airline ready at least a year earlier, again with academy training (where the airlines are hiring from). That one year faster could potentially lead to an extra year as a senior captain at a major. This could potentially lead to an extra $200,000 in your bank account. Now answer yourselves this, because you are here to answer questions. Is your cheaper and faster rating, actually cheaper and faster in the long run?
And Chunk: Why are you always coming in the Pan Am forum and starting trouble? You have enough trouble of your own over in your Flight Safety forum. A two year wait after completing the program before going online as a CFI? And yes, I think the Flight Safety program, like Pan Am’s, is top notch. But do you realize you could finish the program at FSI and a guy could come in to Pan Am with no previous flight experience, complete the program, go online as a CFI right away, build the hours, and be hired by an airline, and all before the FSI guy even started building hours as a CFI. This is fine if you are not in a hurry to start your airline career, and a perfectly acceptable sacrifice in order to attend your first school of choice. But you have other options besides putting down the Pan Am program (a program you have no first hand experience with) to try and build up Flight Safety.
Jeeerry! Jeeerry! Jeeerry!
