Odd flying club dilemma

[killbilly]

What a timely post.

I did all my PPL training at KTKI in Dallas and was fortunate to have a great experience. The planes were old beaters, but they were cheap, and my instructor was fantastic. Had no issues with the club.

I've been looking at clubs here in DC and just reading some of the websites and rules sorta set off alarm bells with me. I guess it's maybe just different out here, but I have yet to find a club where the value of being in a flying club is really there. Maybe I'll change my mind later. Off to check out of a pair of FBOs today!

 

[Itchy]

Geeze. You had a contract. They broke it.

 

[trafficinsight]

If you're willing to drive to RHV there's plenty of clubs with cheaper rates and none of the BS currency rules


Sent from 1865 by telegraph....

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I did a checkout there in Palo Alto, I was less than impressed. Pricey and it felt like they were doing me a favor nickel and dime'ing me. Ended up meeting someone that owned a citabria and flew that in exchange for paying for the gas (being a CFI has it's perks sometimes).

Take your business elsewhere. There are enough airports in the bay area. I'd send a nice letter to management there explaining why you are going somewhere else. Be polite, but getting enough feedback like that can make policies change eventually.

 

[inigo88]

I'm a member of a flying club at Palo Alto that is awesome. It's like friends/family... great people, nice airplanes, good mx, good availability. There are a couple other places on the field that I've heard are pretty nice, as well (Not clubs).

http://www.advantage-aviation.com/
http://www.flysundance.org/
http://www.advancedflyers.com/

*Shrug* No vested interest, and I don't know much about advanced or advantage... but I really do love my club and think it's run by classy people ... and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to a west valley refugee.

-Fox

So you're at Sundance then? I was reading their website last night, partly out of my own curiosity and partly as market research for Chasen. Sadly I'm coming to the conclusion that there isn't anywhere in San Mateo county (SQL/PAO) that will rent you an airplane without expecting initiation, monthly and other unrelated fees. That being said, I did like their website and it looks like you get a lot for those fees.

On an unrelated note, since you fly acro I'd highly recommend checking out Attitude Aviation at LVK. Their fleet includes everything from Citabrias, to Great Lakes, Pitts, T-6 and an L-39. They specialize in aerobatic and formation training, and at least one of their former CFIs is a member here. I did my tailwheel and some initial aerobatics with them and it was a blast. I felt like I was at aviation Disneyland every time I walked in the door. The world needs more places like that!

 

[JordanD]

Jeez, is it just the bay area that is like this? I've rarely encountered this kind of thing in KY. A checkout usually consists of "yeah, you're not going to kill yourself or break the airplane....you're good.

 

[derg]

Refund.

And talk about your true experiences online, just like you're doing here.

From the outside, the situation looks fundamentally idiotic. If you're current, you're current and if you're within your 90 day limit, you're within your 90 limit. Even the 90 day limit is doofus.

 

[🦈💜]

So you're at Sundance then? I was reading their website last night, partly out of my own curiosity and partly as market research for Chasen. Sadly I'm coming to the conclusion that there isn't anywhere in San Mateo county (SQL/PAO) that will rent you an airplane without expecting initiation, monthly and other unrelated fees. That being said, I did like their website and it looks like you get a lot for those fees.

I'm content. :> I really like the people there and there's no BS. It's a very friendly atmosphere, and I find their policies reasonable and .. well, friendly!

On an unrelated note, since you fly acro I'd highly recommend checking out Attitude Aviation at LVK. Their fleet includes everything from Citabrias, to Great Lakes, Pitts, T-6 and an L-39. They specialize in aerobatic and formation training, and at least one of their former CFIs is a member here. I did my tailwheel and some initial aerobatics with them and it was a blast. I felt like I was at aviation Disneyland every time I walked in the door. The world needs more places like that!

Seconded, thirded, fourthed and fifthed! That's where I've done the majority of my acro flying. Unfortunately, I moved to Mountain View from Fremont, and Livermore became a lot more annoying to get to. But that would have been moot, except that I was flying the Super D over there, and when that airplane went away it left a huge gaping hole in my heart. ;>

It's not the greatest excuse, especially since I haven't had any upside down time in a good while. I keep telling myself I'm going to buy a Super D of my own, or a pitts, or .. well, something! Or a partnership. But realistically, I need to just give Attitude a call and get some time in.

~Fox

 

[🦈💜]

Jeez, is it just the bay area that is like this? I've rarely encountered this kind of thing in KY. A checkout usually consists of "yeah, you're not going to kill yourself or break the airplane....you're good.

Yeah, the bay area is pretty different in my experience. In Florida, checkouts consisted mostly of "Can you takeoff and land? Yes? Damn, you fly good. Let me autograph your logbook." in .6 - .9.

In California, if I want to get checked out in a 172 at a new club, I'm going to find myself doing steep turns, stalls, slow flight, turns during slow flight, short field, soft field takeoffs and landings, maybe a no-flap landing ... you get the idea. So yeah.

I don't actually mind much ... it just is what it is.

Man, I need to finish my stupid CFI. I should probably just go somewhere like Sheble or ATP, then come back.

~Fox

 

[ChasenSFO]

Thanks for the tips guys. I've asked to meet with the CP Wednesday.

What I hate about flying out here and the main reason I prefer to fly out of LVK, OAK, and LOU is the way they treat customers. I've rented from 3 of the 5 schools at my local airport, every one of them had $50+ monthly dues, $55+/hr CFIs, and treats you like they're doing you a huge favor renting you an airplane and you aren't a customer, you're a stranger taking their airplane up under watchful eyes. Every where else I've rented away from SQL/PAO, you walk up, grab the plane, and leave. However, I was getting tired of driving distances to other airports and was ready to knock out the rest of my ratings at West Valley mainly for the 10 minute drive to the airport. Now I guess I'll have to use that block time and fork out the dough at San Carlos Flight Center or Sundance. It's just annoying that for the third time I've run into a situation where I am extraordinarily disrespected by a flying club after being a trouble free renter for over a year.

By the way, if you go over 90 days in the 172(even if you flew a complex airplane the day before), recheck consists of a packet of homework doing performance charts, weight and balance, and finding technical information about the plane. You then spend about an hour going over that with a CFI at the price of $55/hr, then they sit there and talk to you about different situations like its a mock oral for another hour. You come back the next day and do a 2 hour flight with a mock XC and diversion in a 172 that costs $150/hr. Meanwhile, across the bay, I can fly with a buddy for the cost of a 6-pack, rent a 172 at his rate for $77 wet, do 3 take offs and landings, then just have fun and maybe practice some air work. I would think 169 hours in an airplane, and 300+ landings at your local airport should satisfy a flying club.

 

[Mike H]

That sounds a bit over the top for a flight review, nevermind a currency flight in a 172

 

[killbilly]

For what it's worth...

I was "interviewing" an FBO/flight school today and with this thread in mind, I asked a question about currency.

The school has requirements for currency which exceed the FAA requirement - if you're under 250 hours, there is a 60-day currency requirement, and it's separate currency checkouts for day and night. Night doesn't get you day automatically and vice-versa.

I thought this was all odd, and I pressed the CFI about it. He indicated (rather sheepishly, which makes me think it was legit) that it was their insurance company that required it, and not something they just made up.

Now - I'm not saying these issues are the same as your case - likely not. But it was eye-opening to know that insurance companies could impose requirements beyond the scope of the FAA.

 

[Douglas]

They do.

Currency requirements are very common, to the point I'd be shocked to find a place without currency requirements.

 

[Roger Roger]

Hearing your story, while disappointing, is not surprising.

 

[A150K]

Yeah, West Valley has some stories...

Several years ago I did a checkout with one of their CFIs. For his instructor payment he would not accept check or credit card, only cash. Luckily I had a few 20s on me. When he didn't have the $3 change for my cash payment, he quickly said there actually was an "logbook signing and paperwork fee" so he didn't need to give me any change. When I complained, they said "well, if you really are going to get that worked up over just three dollars, I guess we can mail that to you sometime." Never got it of course.

A few flights later, overheard one of their CFIs at the office talking to a perspective student about getting his private. She told him that she only accepted students who paid for their entire training up front, because "she didn't want students who weren't committed." Classy.

​

 

[amjon]

For what it's worth...

I was "interviewing" an FBO/flight school today and with this thread in mind, I asked a question about currency.

The school has requirements for currency which exceed the FAA requirement - if you're under 250 hours, there is a 60-day currency requirement, and it's separate currency checkouts for day and night. Night doesn't get you day automatically and vice-versa.

I thought this was all odd, and I pressed the CFI about it. He indicated (rather sheepishly, which makes me think it was legit) that it was their insurance company that required it, and not something they just made up.

Now - I'm not saying these issues are the same as your case - likely not. But it was eye-opening to know that insurance companies could impose requirements beyond the scope of the FAA.

That seems a bit high. The school I go to doesn't really have those requirements. If anything a couple of trips around the pattern with a CFI would be enough to get you going again. I usually do it at night as I then cover both day/ night.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

That seems a bit high. The school I go to doesn't really have those requirements. If anything a couple of trips around the pattern with a CFI would be enough to get you going again. I usually do it at night as I then cover both day/ night.

Gouging for "currency" or "focus training" is SOP where I live. I can't stand it.

For what it's worth...

I was "interviewing" an FBO/flight school today and with this thread in mind, I asked a question about currency.

The school has requirements for currency which exceed the FAA requirement - if you're under 250 hours, there is a 60-day currency requirement, and it's separate currency checkouts for day and night. Night doesn't get you day automatically and vice-versa.

Bolded portion is beyond stupid, the former is just stupid—even for 250-hour wonders.

I thought this was all odd, and I pressed the CFI about it. He indicated (rather sheepishly, which makes me think it was legit) that it was their insurance company that required it, and not something they just made up.

Keeps fleet utilization and billable hours up too...

Now - I'm not saying these issues are the same as your case - likely not. But it was eye-opening to know that insurance companies could impose requirements beyond the scope of the FAA.

The insurance business is killing the accessibility of general aviation to all but the well-heeled.

 

[kiloalpha]

Jeez, is it just the bay area that is like this? I've rarely encountered this kind of thing in KY. A checkout usually consists of "yeah, you're not going to kill yourself or break the airplane....you're good.

I think my checkout at one of your schools was "You have how many hours in a 172? Oh yeah, have fun!"

 

[trafficinsight]

I did one trip around the pattern in a 152 in Ohio, and that one was good for a 152 and a 150.

I managed not to kill myself.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I did one trip around the pattern in a 152 in Ohio, and that one was good for a 152 and a 150.

I managed not to kill myself.

S and P model C172s were different check outs at my "flight school."


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