My side of the story (Falcon F/O)

[Bumblebee]

(just listening)

 

[CaptBill]

(just listening)

You are such a good role model. :rotfl:

 

[Bumblebee]

You are such a good roll model. :rotfl:

yeah whatever

 

[O&M]

I appreciate your kind words CalCapt. Rest assured that I have been listening for long time. I have just recently chosen to join the conversation.

It's obvious that I bring a different viewpoint to the table. But the reaction to my viewpoint suggests that there is a certain thread of thought that has been "inbred" into this website, and perhaps across the aviation community as a whole. May I respectfully suggest that it is not only I that should heed your suggestion?

 

[Bumblebee]

I think that having diverse viewpoints are critical to having a true discussion on the merits of an issue. Particularly, when the viewpoints come from someone with certain knowledge pertaining to the discussion. We have several around here who are quick with opinions, but not so quick to back them up....on all sides of the issues.

 

[CaptBill]

You will learn more (good and bad) from listening than you will from talking, and that goes for all of us.

But the reaction to my viewpoint suggests that there is a certain thread of thought that has been "inbred" into this website, and perhaps across the aviation community as a whole. May I respectfully suggest that it is not only I that should heed your suggestion?

I am surprised you find a common thread of thought between anyone here on JC. :laff: I am always amazed at the diversity of thinking here but try to remain open minded despite my tendency to think I am right most of the time. I sincerely believe that any negative vibes you felt when you first arrived here is based simply on others seeing you as a new guy who stumbled onto JC and started barking for the sake of barking. As you said, you had the luxury of lurking for a while so you were well prepared to join in when you finally decided to join us officially. That just shows you how easy it is to get a little riled up around here over nothing. Your new blood and thought provoking posts are welcomed and appreciated. Understand though that your thoughts and ideas will be debated and wrestled with because that is what we do here and hopefully, we all come away a bit more informed and enlightened. Your respectful suggestion that we all listen more and talk less is spot on, just as I mentioned at the end of my original post.

Once again, Welcome to JC.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I have a hard time swallowing the notion that Management is paying someone to deceive us all on the Interwebs. Call me a rube. They're way too busy deciding how to pump and dump the next IPO.

You would be amazed at how much time management spends focused on these kinds of web boards. Pinnacle management frequently reads just about every forum out there. AirTran management has actually copied posts from Flightinfo for use in disciplinary arbitrations. Don't ever believe that management doesn't pay a lot of attention to internet forums, and yes, even post anonymously. They aren't as busy with true business decisions as you give them credit for.

It's obvious that I bring a different viewpoint to the table. But the reaction to my viewpoint suggests that there is a certain thread of thought that has been "inbred" into this website, and perhaps across the aviation community as a whole. May I respectfully suggest that it is not only I that should heed your suggestion?

I would suggest that you provide information about your background if you want people here to respect your views on these subjects. If you're a student pilot, a weekend warrior, or anyone else not exposed for a lengthy period of time to labor/management relations at an airline, then you should probably leave these topics to the people that live it. Right now your profile just shows you as a student C172 pilot. Not exactly someone that should be debating a bunch of airline pilots about airline issues.

 

[SurferLucas]

You would be amazed at how much time management spends focused on these kinds of web boards. Pinnacle management frequently reads just about every forum out there. AirTran management has actually copied posts from Flightinfo for use in disciplinary arbitrations. Don't ever believe that management doesn't pay a lot of attention to internet forums, and yes, even post anonymously. They aren't as busy with true business decisions as you give them credit for.

I know of one Captain at Horizon who was suspended for a trip for something he posted on APC's forum.

He had already checked in for his trip, so he still got paid for it and got the next week off.

I would suggest that you provide information about your background if you want people here to respect your views on these subjects. If you're a student pilot, a weekend warrior, or anyone else not exposed for a lengthy period of time to labor/management relations at an airline, then you should probably leave these topics to the people that live it. Right now your profile just shows you as a student C172 pilot. Not exactly someone that should be debating a bunch of airline pilots about airline issues.

Seems I've heard that once before on here...but still no answer from O&M about his/her background.

 

[derg]

"You would worry less about what other people think of you if you realized how seldom they do" - David Foster Wallace.

I have a hard time swallowing the notion that Management is paying someone to deceive us all on the Interwebs. Call me a rube. They're way too busy deciding how to pump and dump the next IPO.

Aaaaaaactually, they do.

Let's just say "an employer" was using American Consulting Group to infiltrate a labor drive through social networking (forums ARE a social network), internet, misinformation tactics, etc. Check out some quarterly financial reports!

And their fees are in the millions.

From a webmaster's perspective, you bet your sweet patootie that corporations plant people into social media and they would be idiots not to!

 

[MikeD]

From a webmaster's perspective, you bet your sweet patootie that corporations plant people into social media and they would be idiots not to!

Agree. With social media being a veritable gold mine of "intel" on what people, employees, etc are doing or thinking; they would indeed be idiots not to.

The flip side of the coin is the love and desire people have to "throw themselves out there" on social media sites (Facebook, etc) for all to see and with no operational security in mind.

 

[WacoFan]

I admire the FO coming here and laying out his story. I would be particularly interested in him coming here and explaining his experiences with co-workers and others since his flight. I wonder if there has been any fall-out in real life and not just on interweb message boards?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I admire the FO coming here and laying out his story. I would be particularly interested in him coming here and explaining his experiences with co-workers and others since his flight. I wonder if there has been any fall-out in real life and not just on interweb message boards?

I would hope so.

 

[FXMXC]

Depends on what the striking union designates as struck work. An MEC may demand that other employees not cross its lines. That's rare, though. Typically the struck work definition will only include the employees of that craft and class. In the specific case you mention at NWA, AMFA did not ask anyone else to honor their lines.

Well as an honorable AMFA striker I can say my problem with the NW pilots was not so much honoring our line but it was the fact they went out of their way to help NW bust the AMFA union. There were plenty of maintenance problems going on in the beginning of our strike but the FAA turned a blind eye to it and even benched one of their inspectors who tried to bring it to light. You would think ALPA would have had something to say about it but the only time you heard anything from them was when the strike was over as was most of our careers then ALPA came out with a statement of "no confidence" in the NW maintenance program. Is this truly because AMFA was an independant union and not AFL-CIO? And before you make the statement of the MX did not support the NW pilot strike let me point out that first off AMFA was not the MX bargaining agent at the time of the NW pilot strike the IAM was. Second ALPA requested that ALL ground employees continue to work as NW parked all the planes it would create a more financial burden to the company. Which it did thats why they laid off all front line employees except for a few mechanics during that strike.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I've mentioned this to you before, but I think you guys lost any hope for ALPA support when your AMFA leadership told Captain Woerth months before the strike that they "didn't need the help of a bunch of bug smashers." Your leadership got just what they asked for.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Your leadership got just what they asked for.

At best, the entire membership got what the leadership asked for. And here we have the problem with Authority, even if it's opposed to another Authority...

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Their leadership is elected.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Their leadership is elected.

I'm not such a sucker as to invoke Godwin's Law here, but there are plenty of examples of elected leadership which strongly suggest that being "elected" isn't exactly a certainsure bulwark against policies that directly contravene the expressed and implied will of the electorate. Most of them, in my estimation.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

To quote Winston Churchill, "...democracy is the worst form of government, expect for all those others forms that have been tried."

 

[Boris Badenov]

To quote Winston Churchill, "...democracy is the worst form of government, expect for all those others forms that have been tried."

A great relief to the families of those who, through no fault of their own, have been sold out by one Interest to another Interest, no doubt.

PS. Last time I checked, the leadership of publicly traded corporations was "elected", too.

 

[jtrain609]

A great relief to the families of those who, through no fault of their own, have been sold out by one Interest to another Interest, no doubt.

PS. Last time I checked, the leadership of publicly traded corporations was "elected", too.

To paraphrase Von Clausewitz, politics is war by other means.

You win, or you lose; vote accordingly.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

A great relief to the families of those who, through no fault of their own, have been sold out by one Interest to another Interest, no doubt.

I don't think anyone is "sold out" in situations such as this. Leaders simply made bad decisions. The same could be said of the PATCO strike in '81.

PS. Last time I checked, the leadership of publicly traded corporations was "elected", too.

You know as well as I do that those elections are a sham.

 

[Bumblebee]

A great relief to the families of those who, through no fault of their own, have been sold out by one Interest to another Interest, no doubt.

PS. Last time I checked, the leadership of publicly traded corporations was "elected", too.

I don't think anyone is "sold out" in situations such as this. Leaders simply made bad decisions. The same could be said of the PATCO strike in '81.



You know as well as I do that those elections are a sham.

is there no way to say, hey I see your point here folks?

the leadership often does what they feel to be best for their constituents even when the constituents believe differently, it just sometimes doesn't work out..

and I know from personal experience with unions that they will at times make deals that will benefit them, or the union, on the back (or neck) of some or all of its members...

So both of you have a reasonable perspective, so why not at least credit the other person...it is not all or nothing.