Is a roll that big of a deal?

[TXaviator]

Oh nice. . .you gonna be putting them up on Youtube to show the world?

theres already plenty of vids on youtube of guys doing wingovers/spiral dives/rolls/etc after kicking out the meat bombs.

not something i think id like to get into though, and this is coming from a guy who loves acro! (clearly!)

 

[butt]

I'm not even going to try to respond to that nonsense. :banghead:

Thats because you can't. You (and many others) are not in this thread to discuss, you're only here to preach.

 

[USMC-SSGT]

X2 with germb747.

It is the ones without experience that are arguing that aerobatics can be done safely in a non certified airplane.

I wish this forum had some time of authorization to post sometimes. You had to show a certain level of experience in the subject you are posting on before being allowed to hit submit.

 

[Grabo172]

Thats because you can't. You (and many others) are not in this thread to discuss, you're only here to preach.

Here is the FAR that says you can't...

§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

A standard or utility category airplane has the operating limitations stated in section 2 of the POH. They will say something to the effect of...

"Aerobatic maneuvers, including spins, are not approved" (from 172RG POH)
Or
"No aerobatic maneuvers are approved except those listed below... Chandelles, Lazy eights, Steep turns, Spins, Stalls" (C152 POH)

Everyone is not saying it can't be done...

But it CAN NOT be done legally if the airplane is not approved for it. Flat out illegal!

 

[CK]

Some people here need to get a grip. The act of doing a roll or flip is not in and of itself going to cause the airframe to break up, unless you do the maneuver all wrong. The only difference between a certified aerobatic airframe and a non-certified aerobatic airframe is that the certified one is strengthened so that you have more of a safety margin when or if something goes wrong.

Are you comfortable enough with your skills to be performing these maneuvers with less safety margin? Some people are, some people aren't. Who are you (not directed at anyone particular) to declare someone is or isn't up to that task? In my experience, you don't have to be a Bob Hoover in order to be able to do a barrel roll every time with some certainty of not messing it up.

And another thing. If a plane is damaged to the point where the airframe will likely breakup when the next renter tries turns around a point, there is going to be some kind of external indication of the damages. If a pilot tries to fly a plane with crinkled skin or a bent wing, can you really fell sorry for them if they crashed?

That said, all of this only pertains to rolls and flips where the plane only experiences minor G-forces. Doing hammerheads and things like that open a whole nother can of potential problems, such as the battery leaking mentioned earlier.

Read the posts, just about every person here said that a perfect barrell roll is not detrimental to the aircraft's structual integrity. However, every private pilot I know who has tried to do a barrell roll has fallen through at the top of the roll and had to do a half loop to recover. This causes 3-4Gs at the bottom for five to ten seconds. On a thirty year old Warrior with moderate corrosion and 11,000 hours on the airframe you would have to be an idiot to think this would have no affect on the spar, wing attachment points, and more importantly the emmpanage. It is normally the emmpagnage that fails in inflight breakups. I remember my father coming home one day and talking about how they picked inbetween thunderstorm cells in a C-12 he flies with about 20,000 hours on the airframe. He talked about how bad the turbulence was, but that is ok because the airplane had a new wing spar. When I asked him when the tail was last strengthed he had no answer. I guess we could have put on his tombestone "Atleast the wing is still in one peice".

Alex.

 

[Hacker15e]

Some people here need to get a grip. The act of doing a roll or flip is not in and of itself going to cause the airframe to break up, unless you do the maneuver all wrong.

The problem with that line of thought is that it is very easy to do a "simple" barrel roll wrong. Wrong to the point where it takes an over-G to recover from the post-maneuver dive that resulted from the improper maneuver. It is a common student error to end up in a dive after an improper roll...VERY common.

How much experience do you have teaching aerobatics?

By the way...what is a 'flip' and how is it done with 'minor G forces'?

In my experience, you don't have to be a Bob Hoover in order to be able to do a barrel roll every time with some certainty of not messing it up.

You also need not be named Hoover to know the CFR well enough to be aware that the maneuver(s) in question are not legal.

We've all ready established that it CAN be done. The question is, SHOULD it be done. This is where the previously mentioned concept of "flight discipline" comes into play -- knowing the rules inside and out, and making informed decisions about how to operate your craft with that knowledge in mind.

Flight discipline is the cornerstone to being a pilot.

The idea that someone would know that it's not legal to perform an aerobatic maneuver in a particular aircraft, and then go perform that maneuver anyway is a blatant violation of flight discipline. It takes an action that could be considered a 'mistake' if the pilot did not have knowledge that it was wrong, and turns that action into a 'crime'.

And another thing. If a plane is damaged to the point where the airframe will likely breakup when the next renter tries turns around a point, there is going to be some kind of external indication of the damages. If a pilot tries to fly a plane with crinkled skin or a bent wing, can you really fell sorry for them if they crashed?

No, sorry, not true.

How much experience do you have with airplanes that are ovrstressed? Overstressed and fatigued metal does NOT always bend prior to breaking. This is why there are processes like NDI, magnafluxing, electrical eddy current, dye penetrant, etc, which are able to detect cracked and stressed metal that is not visible to the eye.

 

[Goonie]

And another thing. If a plane is damaged to the point where the airframe will likely breakup when the next renter tries turns around a point, there is going to be some kind of external indication of the damages. If a pilot tries to fly a plane with crinkled skin or a bent wing, can you really fell sorry for them if they crashed?

Thats gotta be the dumbest post I've ever read.

 

[WacoFan]

OK guys, I was with you for a long time about the legality and judgement issue to not roll airplanes that are not certified for it. That said, Holocene and Butt have converted me and I now see the light. So, later today I am going to rent a 172 and do some acro. I will do Barrel Rolls, Snap Rolls, Immelman's and I will finish with a Lomcevac. After successfully finishing my routine and securing the airplane, I will smoke some high-grade dope...because it is better than drinking beer - healthy for you in fact. If the next guy who flies the C-172 misses the wrinkled skin or a bent wing...well F-him, he should have done a better pre-flight.

After I build time in this manner I may finish up my ratings at Jet U, then try to get on with GoJet (because instructing blows and you can't learn anything)...until I can get enough TPIC to get on with USAir so I can join USAPA.

(The last paragraph was simply trying to get in front of the next controversies that could potentially be started. We have already argued about Pot and gone 7 pages about rolling a non-certified for aerobatics airplane. Perhaps we can keep keep this thread for ALL controversy simply for convienience. )

 

[MQAAord]

You forgot to mention Nazis.

 

[TurdBird]

So, later today I am going to rent a 172 and do some acro. I will do Barrel Rolls, Snap Rolls, Immelman's and I will finish with a Lomcevac. After successfully finishing my routine and securing the airplane, I will smoke some high-grade dope...because it is better than drinking beer - healthy for you in fact. If the next guy who flies the C-172 misses the wrinkled skin or a bent wing...well F-him, he should have done a better pre-flight.

Hey Waco thanks for bringing the plane back on time! This is great, I'm going to go fly up and see some friends for lunch. Do me a favor though, call them and tell them I wont be making it. When you're done with that can you also please go comfort my mom because her son was killed when his wing separated from the plane he was flying. Don't make it a sad speech at my funeral, try to get a few good laughs out of everyone. Thanks man. See you on the flip side.

Get my point? It's gonna be that unlucky person who's looking forward to the flight that's going to ultimately kill him.

 

[derg]

You forgot to mention Nazis.

With laser beams?

 

[Grabo172]

Hey Waco thanks for bringing the plane back on time! This is great, I'm going to go fly up and see some friends for lunch. Do me a favor though, call them and tell them I wont be making it. When you're done with that can you also please go comfort my mom because her son was killed when his wing separated from the plane he was flying. Don't make it a sad speech at my funeral, try to get a few good laughs out of everyone. Thanks man. See you on the flip side.

Get my point? It's gonna be that unlucky person who's looking forward to the flight that's going to ultimately kill him.

I think Waco forgot the tag... it was very much on his part.

 

[MQAAord]

I think Five0 got the sarcasm, and was replying with sarcasm of his own.

 

[tonyw]

Are you comfortable enough with your skills to be performing these maneuvers with less safety margin? Some people are, some people aren't.

It has nothing to do with that. Yeah, I'm sure I could do a roll and get away with it.

I'm not interested in a career in aviation anymore. So the risk for me would be low. I get caught, I lose my ticket. Not my meal ticket.

On the other hand, I spent a lot of coin getting that ticket and I ain't pissing it away just to say, dude, I did a roll in a 172.

It's the decision making process that concerns me. If you do a cost benefit analysis and say yup, doing a roll is worth the risk of losing my ticket, then something is seriously flawed with your analytical abilities.

 

[butt]

The problem with that line of thought is that it is very easy to do a "simple" barrel roll wrong. Wrong to the point where it takes an over-G to recover from the post-maneuver dive that resulted from the improper maneuver. It is a common student error to end up in a dive after an improper roll...VERY common.

If you know what you're doing, is is not at all "easy" to mess up a simple barrel roll. If you don't know what you are doing, it is very easy. See the difference?

You also need not be named Hoover to know the CFR well enough to be aware that the maneuver(s) in question are not legal.

I never said it was not illegal. This is not a discussion on the legality of doing aerobatics. Its about whether its safe or not. Violating a FAR in my book is the lesser of the two evils compared to doing something unsafe.

How much experience do you have with airplanes that are ovrstressed? Overstressed and fatigued metal does NOT always bend prior to breaking. This is why there are processes like NDI, magnafluxing, electrical eddy current, dye penetrant, etc, which are able to detect cracked and stressed metal that is not visible to the eye.

People are acting like it's possible for the wings to just fall off out of the blue because of someone previously overstressing the plane. I'm not saying overstressing can't occur without visible signs, I'm saying unprovoked catastrophic failure can't happen unless there is visible damage.

 

[OldTownPilot]

I'm not saying overstressing can't occur without visible signs, I'm saying unprovoked catastrophic failure can't happen unless there is visible damage.

You want to debate that with a materials engineer?

 

[butt]

You want to debate that with a materials engineer?

Do you have a link or something to prove otherwise? An NTSB report, maybe?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

If an aircraft has been damaged by overstressing it may not be apparent. The wing will not just "fall off" -- However when your student is doing a steep turn, loses some altitude and tries to correct and turns it into a 2G maneuver which is within the load limit factor of the airplane the stressed metal may give way in which case your wings may be 'clapping' above your head.

 

[MQAAord]

Do you have a link or something to prove otherwise? An NTSB report, maybe?

Straight from the mouth of a very reliable A&P IA, "metal stresses than can lead to structural failure may not necessarily be visible to the eye in a preflight."

 

[WacoFan]

Hey Waco thanks for bringing the plane back on time! This is great, I'm going to go fly up and see some friends for lunch. Do me a favor though, call them and tell them I wont be making it. When you're done with that can you also please go comfort my mom because her son was killed when his wing separated from the plane he was flying. Don't make it a sad speech at my funeral, try to get a few good laughs out of everyone. Thanks man. See you on the flip side.

Get my point? It's gonna be that unlucky person who's looking forward to the flight that's going to ultimately kill him.

Pity about the wings falling off...in my eulogy I will be sure to slip in that timeless line about "he died doing what he loved to do". Should have climbed a small ladder and inspected the wings more closely spanky - probably were wrinkled from my lomcevac - your bad. Also, should have removed all the inspection covers to notice any wrinkles that may have been hidden from view...but again, your bad.