Is a roll that big of a deal?

[Holocene]

What do you guys think of this Citation roll?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwsCOam4r4Q&feature=related

Not saying it's justified, but it looked pretty gentle. And that is more than likely an aircraft that will at some point be carrying entrusting passengers.

 

[TurdBird]

Oh nice. . .you gonna be putting them up on Youtube to show the world?

:rotfl:I love those people. It's that much better when they film the name plate on the panel with the N number right before they start their stunt.

 

[surreal1221]

Yup, friggin idiots.

If only the FAA really wanted to be proactive in some certificate action against these tools.

And yet - I see the troll isn't satisfied with the current progress of the thread; now wants us to rate a Citation roll.

I'm so excited!!1

 

[USMC-SSGT]

What do you guys think of this Citation roll?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwsCOam4r4Q&feature=related

Not saying it's justified, but it looked pretty gentle. And that is more than likely an aircraft that will at some point be carrying entrusting passengers.

Please stop..just roll an airplane and get it over with. The argument has been beat to death that a properly trained pilot under ideal conditions can put a plane through a roll that puts less stress on the plane than a steep turn. A PLANE CAN BE ROLLED IF DONE PROPERLY..WE GET IT.

 

[surreal1221]

Really need some sort of Professional Standards education for General Aviation types.

Oh right. . .it's called the military, almost forgot. Unfortunately, a growing number of our peers lack a military background. Muh, whatever.

I'm tired, I have some planes to roll in the morning.

 

[TurdBird]

I'm tired, I have some planes to roll in the morning.

Just another day right?

 

[Roger, Roger]

If only the FAA really wanted to be proactive in some certificate action against these tools.

Why would they do that when they can go after American for not complying with a new inspector's whim on wiring tie-wrap spacing and grab all the headlines?

 

[tgrayson]

Mil pilots do not hold FAA certificates. Military aircraft do not have N numbers and are not registered with the FAA.

You probably won't find anything in the CFR allowing deviations in those two areas, either.

Actually, you will. There is *some* methodology in the legal field.

 

[tgrayson]

I use that maneuver in the sim when doing unusual attitude recovery from nose-high, slow airspeed situations - hold or increase the bank angle and let the nose fall through without loading any g's. Wouldn't want to do that for very long though.

Yes, you seem to understand my point. You can unload a bank only temporarily by allowing a rapidly increasing airspeed. Your AOA would need to keep decreasing in order to maintain a constant load factor. Eventually, you need to pay the piper.

A bank, all by itself, doesn't produce a load factor. The load factor comes from either 1) increasing the AOA to maintain the airspeed, or 2) allowing the airspeed to increase at a constant AOA Either one of those things increases the amount of lift produced by the wing, and the ratio L/W is equal to the load factor.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I've done a full acrobatic routine including hammerheads, spins, rolls, a loop under the Denver skybridge to a landing on runway 17L (I think its 17L?) in the Dash-8 ... sim.

Holo needs to rent a Super D and a aerobatic instructor and get this fascination out of his system.

 

[tgrayson]

Not saying it's justified, but it looked pretty gentle. And that is more than likely an aircraft that will at some point be carrying entrusting passengers.

Here's a local guy who rolled a Seneca:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X03213&key=1

 

[Holocene]

Here's a local guy who rolled a Seneca:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X03213&key=1

Unfortunate...

 

[jhugz]

Unfortunate...

Notice how the fatality was 2. When you go kill yourself try not to take anyone with you.

 

[WacoFan]

I am worried about your risk/reward thought process Holocene. I am not bashing, I am sincere.

On the pot thread, you continued to argue that pot was really not as bad as booze and had no lingering effects.

On this thread, you argue that an airplane can be rolled. Nobody argues that it can, they argue whether the person doing the rolling is competent to do the manuver perfectly, not overstressing the airplane.

The problem is, there are large "STOP" signs attaced with both threads. It is silly and stupid to even discuss the relative safety of pot, because everyone can lose their careers. That, for most people, is enough to simply flush the idea of pot from their mind - makes no sense to think or talk about it. We can discuss pot, or rolling an airplane that is not certified for it, all day long. The bottom line is that to do so is akin to masturbation. Most, if not all of the people answering you are highly disciplined and "no" or "illegal" means just that...and the topics cease to exist. You seem to, in your thought process at least, feel that there is some wiggle room attached to rules. They exist for a reason. USMCSGT instructed with one of the most famous airshow pilots working today - he knows exactly what he is talking about. Listen to him and the others. Mostly, when you see a stop sign, obey it and don't give a moments thought to running it.

 

[TurdBird]

Holocene,

Do know that this thread is not about bashing you or your ideas. This thread is about a bunch of strangers worrying about the safety of you, your passengers, and the people on the ground below you.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Here's a local guy who rolled a Seneca:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X03213&key=1

Whats worse is the 2nd guy in the AC was probably a student. I doubt he rented the Seneca to do it after all!

 

[Holocene]

Holocene,

Do know that this thread is not about bashing you or your ideas. This thread is about a bunch of strangers worrying about the safety of you, your passengers, and the people on the ground below you.

Understood. Thanks.

 

[germb747]

Frankly I'm perturbed by the total lack of flight discipline exhibited by people who intentionally operate an aircraft contrary to the limitations and flight manual prescribed for that aircraft, and by those of you who think that's okay.

I've done aileron rolls, barrel rolls, chandelles, cloverleafs, cuban eights, immelmanns, lazy eights, loops, split-s, and have also flown in close formation with another aircraft at 90 degrees of bank, but only in an aircraft with an ejection seat that was designed and approved for those maneuvers.

Folks who aren't test pilots and won't respect the limits of their airplanes have no business in the cockpit, period. And I certainly hope that none of these folks ever fly professionally, because while they may think they're hot stuff, they're showing just how arrogant, inmature, and unprofessional they really are. The manuals are written a certain way for a reason, and they shall be complied with. If they won't even adhere to their aircraft's limitations, what other guidance are they willing to violate?

 

[butt]

Some people here need to get a grip. The act of doing a roll or flip is not in and of itself going to cause the airframe to break up, unless you do the maneuver all wrong. The only difference between a certified aerobatic airframe and a non-certified aerobatic airframe is that the certified one is strengthened so that you have more of a safety margin when or if something goes wrong.

Are you comfortable enough with your skills to be performing these maneuvers with less safety margin? Some people are, some people aren't. Who are you (not directed at anyone particular) to declare someone is or isn't up to that task? In my experience, you don't have to be a Bob Hoover in order to be able to do a barrel roll every time with some certainty of not messing it up.

And another thing. If a plane is damaged to the point where the airframe will likely breakup when the next renter tries turns around a point, there is going to be some kind of external indication of the damages. If a pilot tries to fly a plane with crinkled skin or a bent wing, can you really fell sorry for them if they crashed?

That said, all of this only pertains to rolls and flips where the plane only experiences minor G-forces. Doing hammerheads and things like that open a whole nother can of potential problems, such as the battery leaking mentioned earlier.

 

[germb747]

Some people here need to get a grip. The act of doing a roll or flip is not in and of itself going to cause the airframe to break up, unless you do the maneuver all wrong. The only difference between a certified aerobatic airframe and a non-certified aerobatic airframe is that the certified one is strengthened so that you have more of a safety margin when or if something goes wrong.

Are you comfortable enough with your skills to be performing these maneuvers with less safety margin? Some people are, some people aren't. Who are you (not directed at anyone particular) to declare someone is or isn't up to that task? In my experience, you don't have to be a Bob Hoover in order to be able to do a barrel roll every time with some certainty of not messing it up.

And another thing. If a plane is damaged to the point where the airframe will likely breakup when the next renter tries turns around a point, there is going to be some kind of external indication of the damages. If a pilot tries to fly a plane with crinkled skin or a bent wing, can you really fell sorry for them if they crashed?

That said, all of this only pertains to rolls and flips where the plane only experiences minor G-forces. Doing hammerheads and things like that open a whole nother can of potential problems, such as the battery leaking mentioned earlier.

I'm not even going to try to respond to that nonsense. :banghead: