What would you do, and why? 121 vs 135...

I’m at my first airline job as a DEC at PSA. My background is all 91/135, so the transition to the airlines has been interesting. I wouldn’t say the training was difficult, but it was definitely challenging especially given the culture change, amount of info I’m accountable for as DEC, and the fact I never got to be an FO at an airline before.

With that said, never in a million years would I go 91/135 again. Never! Even with all its differences and complexities, it’s the easiest flying job I’ve ever had.

Still learning the 121 ropes on scheduling/pay/contract stuff which puts my head in a spin sometimes, but I live in base so the reserve life hasn’t been so bad.

I’d say go 121, but I’m super biased against 91/135 at this point.
 
I’m a 99.9% CA in seat at a legacy carrier at a very senior base. I probably won’t make it to 50% in the next decade. That being said sitting reserve at home is stupid easy and we don’t even have great reserve rules. Commuting to reserve at 99.9%, I’d go flip burgers instead or become a Walmart greeter. You can always find people that make the commute “work”, but honestly, just move to base if you want a 121 career even if it’s less desirable to live in. Your sanity will thank you.
 
If you’re looking for quality of life, I would wait for Silver to call.

The worst case would be getting sent to SJU for a bit, and I’ll tell you…the flying they do out of San Juan is absolutely awesome. I thought I had won the lottery when Eagle paid me $22/hr to fly into places like Dominica and Tortola…and silver’s paying 2.5x that.

The ATR is a really cool airplane as well.

Commuting to TX or AZ from FL sucks.
 
TexasFlyer said:
I think you hot the nail on the head. I was at PSA 2013 to 2018 (with a stint at Mesa in the middle of that).

Even with 3 or 4 legs at PSA, I don't think I ever did over 9 hours and most days were 5 to 7 hours tops. My reserve time everywhere was never more than 3 months and most days my phone never rang as an FO. I barely got my consolidation hours in on time after IOE. I think that's what it's called.

At Mesa I did 1 or 2 legs normally with 4 to 5 hours as the legs were long and efficient. E175 there was nice. The CRJ guys there worked much more I heard.

If I was doing 12+ hours days, every day. I would be very unhappy long term and frankly would not stick around. It's why I hesitate do to 91k/135 since I hear that's the norm there. I love to fly. But also love my time to rest properly and always be on my A game.

Have the regionals changed that much to where 10+ hours is the norm? I don't want to be using the ALPA App every day to track the rest limitations as I'm being pushed so hard that the App becomes used weekly, versus prior I knew it existed and never once had to reference it.

I will also "live in base" if I go Envoy. Once in DFW or PHX I would rent an apartment and then only try to go "home" during one block of time a month. I'm single. No family to care for other than monitor my mom from afar and mange rental properties from afar (not ideal, but can be done). So I can tough that out until I get MIA in the very distant future as then MIA from TPA isn't bad.

I'm leaning toward Envoy just because that world is known to me from prior experience. But my experience was at a time where we had plenty of reserves most times and most flying covered. I also know that being in my 50s now. If I go to Envoy now, I can always move on if it's a vastly different world than it was 7 years ago. But if I go to FJ and don't like it after a couple years if giving it a good effort, I won't be going to Envoy since I feel at my age I need to do it now or never for the 121 World. 135 will always be there. I'd also bring a few years of longevity with me to Envoy, for what ever that's worth (a bit more vacation seems is all that's worth).


Enjoying the replies here. Keeps me thinking as I will make a decision before May 1st. And once I decide, I stop applying elsewhere and I will commit to at least 24 months no matter where I go before I decide if it's my forever home or a home I need to abandon.
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OR, you can get a paid ticket to and from work every Wednesday for a large block of days off at home, (8/6) fly a nice corporate jet around during business hours and know your days off for a year. And not commute reserve to a regional.

Home once a month? No thanks. Don’t give your life to a regional. Half of my class over the summer were young fractional dudes with low time so it’s not a barrier like it use to be.

Yes, it has changed that much.
 
TexasFlyer said:
After nearly 7 years of not touching an aircraft due to loss of medical, I got my medical back. Feeling grateful for two possible opportunities already. But so different from one another...
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Congrats to getting back to flying! As someone who has been on and off and now on medical leave over the last 20 years I’m happy for you. Depending on why you lost your medical (I don’t need to know it’s just something to think about) I would look at who offers better medical leave/loss of license policies. I don’t really know anything about flex jet or really envoy for that fact, but envoy is alpa so they are likely to have have some safety nets of std/ltd/loss of license if that’s a concern for you moving forward it might be something to factor in. Good luck with your decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TexasFlyer said:
I will also "live in base" if I go Envoy. Once in DFW or PHX I would rent an apartment and then only try to go "home" during one block of time a month. I'm single. No family to care for other than monitor my mom from afar and mange rental properties from afar (not ideal, but can be done). So I can tough that out until I get MIA in the very distant future as then MIA from TPA isn't bad.
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That changes things considerably and opens up a tremendous number of options.

From what you’ve posted, you’re an experienced pilot. How much have you flown recently? Going from years out of the saddle straight to the left seat is going to be a tremendous amount of work.
 
TexasFlyer said:
1) Envoy. Literally my first choice place out of all regionals. Direct Entry Captain. Live an hour from TPA but will be 6+ years of reserve I am told! I will not move from TPA so I'd have to commute to DFW or PHX (MIA is so senior I won't count on that anytime soon). Anyone want to chime in on this QOL I would have and how often I could get home realistically?
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Currently working in the training department at Envoy:

Most of our struggling students are DECs with long gaps since they last flew. New airplane, new company, captain responsibilities all add up to a STEEP learning curve.
 
If you're serious about wanting to continue living the island life, I vote against commuting to reserve. One week a month at home leaves you with very little QOL. You mention being single now, but is that the plan long term? If not, living away from home for 3 weeks at a time isn't going to be conducive to meeting anybody.

I say go to Flexjet. While an 8/6 schedule sounds horrible to me (I've done it twice in my career), it will provide you way more time at home than you'll get as a DEC at a regional. Get the type in a modern corporate plane and fly for a year or two and if you don't like the schedule, start applying to every 91/135 operation near you. Ashley furniture is in your area, though I think they're an EJM account so you won't see them post a job directly. Elite Air out of St Pete has lots of opportunity in small or large cabin. Eventually, you'll get an opportunity that matches what you want for work/life balance. That may mean a large cabin international position where you do 1 or 2 long trips a month. It may mean a mid/super mid job like mine where I do mainly day trips, work an average of 12 days a month, and sleep in my own bed 28 nights a month.
 
roundout said:
That changes things considerably and opens up a tremendous number of options.

From what you’ve posted, you’re an experienced pilot. How much have you flown recently? Going from years out of the saddle straight to the left seat is going to be a tremendous amount of work.
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I have flown exactly ZERO hours in over 6 years (as PIC) other than 2 hours awhile back where I did some dual but did not log it since it was a random event and did not have my logbook with me to have the dual logged. By the end of this week though I'll have a Flight Review and IPC with how ever many hours that takes, whether it be 4 hours or 10 hours or more. What ever it takes.
 
USMCmech said:
Currently working in the training department at Envoy:

Most of our struggling students are DECs with long gaps since they last flew. New airplane, new company, captain responsibilities all add up to a STEEP learning curve.
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Piedmont has a program designed for folks exactly like this. They take someone like this (me) and for the first 250 hours they are an FO. They upgrade then at 250 hours. Has Envoy considered this to increase the success rate? It seems like Piedmont is having good success with this.
 
Decision made. ENVOY. Here is how I thought through things after taking in all the comments here and doing a lot of soul searching.

1) Envoy will be a serious challenge since I have not flown in over 6 years (other than the Flight Review and IPC I am doing this current week). I will try to afford to fly some more beyond this if possible before I start since I have access to a DA40 I can get checked out in. But depends on me winding down other responsibilities as well to get to Envoy with zero commitments outside of excelling at INDOC, SIM, and IOE.

2) Recruiters kept saying due to my appoximate 2000 hours of prior 121 time about a decade ago as an FO and my 5000 hours total time, I'd be a DEC. I'm hoping they can do something like make me an FO for the first 250 hours then upgrade, but if not, I will come mentally prepared for what ever challenge I am presented with.

3) Envoy will be difficult for the first 5 years until I can get to a Miami base (I figure it's about 5 years from what I hear, but i'll plan for the worst and hope for the best). If not MIA, my goal will be to enjoy PHX until I get to MIA (and what ever else may happen before PHX). I'll rent an apartment in base and commute home only when 4 or more days off in a row. I also have family in PHX too. If I only get home to Tampa Bay once a month, that's okay. Once they get PBS going life will be good even on reserve if they allow what Mesa allowed using PBS (6 on, 2 off, 6 on, 2 off, 6 on, 8 off).

4) Once at MIA in the distant future, life will be great. It's not a bad commute from TPA to MIA. Plus South Florida is a place I may consider moving to once based there since I love the beach lifestyle. And while I prefer the Florida Gulf beaches near Tampa, I'm sure I can find the right beach in South Florida for me. I'm thinking long term. After all, this is a career where sometimes we have to "pay our dues" to get to where we want to be. And Envoy has always been the place I wanted to be, I just was never offered the opportunity before now.

5) If I turn down Envoy, I will never be able to consider them again. It's now or never due to how seniority works and the mandatory 65 years old retirement age. I'm not 35 anymore, so I need to consider very carefully my choices. Flexjet and similar companies where there is no age limit will always be there for me should I chose to keep flying after 65.

6) I love the 121 world and I at least am familiar with it. I love knowing in advance where I am flying and when. Sure, for the first 5-6 years I'm on reserve so things just will pop up. But the route structure will become known and comfortable. And I really like that over a Flexjet where every day for life it will feel like being on reserve as trips pop up to random places. Very odd for someone who is loves the unknown in all other aspects of life. But with my flying career, I prefer the known.

7) I love flying the E175. Have some hours in it. Really loved it. My favorite bird I ever flown.

8) I have several investment properties to maintain in the Tampa area. Harder to manage from afar and then I can not be there. But, it can be done. I am implementing plans now to still be able to be hands on from afar by having a good system in place where I can accomplish almost everything remotely using various connections and resources. And worst case, if my idea does not work. I'll sell and invest elsewhere.

9) Flexjet will be much easier lifestyle since I'd be home based and get 12 to 14 days off every month. But this is literally the only positive I can think about. And while it's my most important bullet point, all other bullet points tell me to go to Envoy. Plus, if I do not go to Envoy, I'll always wonder if I made the right decision since I always wanted to work at Envoy. Even if things were going well at the place I chose that would not be Envoy.

I actually look forward to PHX and then MIA in my future. And if it takes ORD and DFW to get to those, that's okay as well. I'm ready for it. Would love if Envoy let's me come in as an FO for 250 hours and then move to Captain, but if not, I'm also ready for that as well. So Envoy it is. I'll sign the CJO after I complete my Flight Review and IPC. Plus I need to be back home to gather all the info requested in the CJO since my flying this week is 500 miles from home. I chose to go with an instructor I had in 2008 that has a nice TAA and is outstanding (prior 121 pilot as well) versus some fresh chap right out of flight school that is just building hours.

Thank you everyone for all the input. And sorry for the novel. But you can see, I thought it through extensively over the last week.
 
What about Atlas 737 or 767. I’m pretty sure that those fleets do a lot of flying out of Tampa and are pretty low impact in terms of how much flying they do. Plus, you wouldn’t have to jumpseat in and out of Flo Rida, which I’ve heard is a special kind of awful.
 
TexasFlyer said:
Decision made. ENVOY. Here is how I thought through things after taking in all the comments here and doing a lot of soul searching.

1) Envoy will be a serious challenge since I have not flown in over 6 years (other than the Flight Review and IPC I am doing this current week). I will try to afford to fly some more beyond this if possible before I start since I have access to a DA40 I can get checked out in. But depends on me winding down other responsibilities as well to get to Envoy with zero commitments outside of excelling at INDOC, SIM, and IOE.

2) Recruiters kept saying due to my appoximate 2000 hours of prior 121 time about a decade ago as an FO and my 5000 hours total time, I'd be a DEC. I'm hoping they can do something like make me an FO for the first 250 hours then upgrade, but if not, I will come mentally prepared for what ever challenge I am presented with.

3) Envoy will be difficult for the first 5 years until I can get to a Miami base (I figure it's about 5 years from what I hear, but i'll plan for the worst and hope for the best). If not MIA, my goal will be to enjoy PHX until I get to MIA (and what ever else may happen before PHX). I'll rent an apartment in base and commute home only when 4 or more days off in a row. I also have family in PHX too. If I only get home to Tampa Bay once a month, that's okay. Once they get PBS going life will be good even on reserve if they allow what Mesa allowed using PBS (6 on, 2 off, 6 on, 2 off, 6 on, 8 off).

4) Once at MIA in the distant future, life will be great. It's not a bad commute from TPA to MIA. Plus South Florida is a place I may consider moving to once based there since I love the beach lifestyle. And while I prefer the Florida Gulf beaches near Tampa, I'm sure I can find the right beach in South Florida for me. I'm thinking long term. After all, this is a career where sometimes we have to "pay our dues" to get to where we want to be. And Envoy has always been the place I wanted to be, I just was never offered the opportunity before now.

5) If I turn down Envoy, I will never be able to consider them again. It's now or never due to how seniority works and the mandatory 65 years old retirement age. I'm not 35 anymore, so I need to consider very carefully my choices. Flexjet and similar companies where there is no age limit will always be there for me should I chose to keep flying after 65.

6) I love the 121 world and I at least am familiar with it. I love knowing in advance where I am flying and when. Sure, for the first 5-6 years I'm on reserve so things just will pop up. But the route structure will become known and comfortable. And I really like that over a Flexjet where every day for life it will feel like being on reserve as trips pop up to random places. Very odd for someone who is loves the unknown in all other aspects of life. But with my flying career, I prefer the known.

7) I love flying the E175. Have some hours in it. Really loved it. My favorite bird I ever flown.

8) I have several investment properties to maintain in the Tampa area. Harder to manage from afar and then I can not be there. But, it can be done. I am implementing plans now to still be able to be hands on from afar by having a good system in place where I can accomplish almost everything remotely using various connections and resources. And worst case, if my idea does not work. I'll sell and invest elsewhere.

9) Flexjet will be much easier lifestyle since I'd be home based and get 12 to 14 days off every month. But this is literally the only positive I can think about. And while it's my most important bullet point, all other bullet points tell me to go to Envoy. Plus, if I do not go to Envoy, I'll always wonder if I made the right decision since I always wanted to work at Envoy. Even if things were going well at the place I chose that would not be Envoy.

I actually look forward to PHX and then MIA in my future. And if it takes ORD and DFW to get to those, that's okay as well. I'm ready for it. Would love if Envoy let's me come in as an FO for 250 hours and then move to Captain, but if not, I'm also ready for that as well. So Envoy it is. I'll sign the CJO after I complete my Flight Review and IPC. Plus I need to be back home to gather all the info requested in the CJO since my flying this week is 500 miles from home. I chose to go with an instructor I had in 2008 that has a nice TAA and is outstanding (prior 121 pilot as well) versus some fresh chap right out of flight school that is just building hours.

Thank you everyone for all the input. And sorry for the novel. But you can see, I thought it through extensively over the last week.
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Congrats on your decision! Knock the dust off and log a little multi PIC and you might be any to hold MIA at American before you can at The Voy.

DE727UPS said:
Best of luck TexasFlyer. I would be pumping USMCmech for gouge to work on before showing up since he's in the biz. Not sure if you saw his post.
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Quoting this again for emphasis. An incredible gift has bestowed itself upon you; utilize it.
 
TexasFlyer said:
Piedmont has a program designed for folks exactly like this. They take someone like this (me) and for the first 250 hours they are an FO. They upgrade then at 250 hours. Has Envoy considered this to increase the success rate? It seems like Piedmont is having good success with this.
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Well, they hired me to run the sim not the department so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

If you have 1000 hours of 121 time, Envoy is going to put you in the left seat from day one. Most DECs do ok, but some (including myself) struggled to adapt to a new operation and new airplane while being a rusty pilot. I got through it, but just know going in that you are in the problematic demographic profile.
 
USMCmech said:
Well, they hired me to run the sim not the department so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

If you have 1000 hours of 121 time, Envoy is going to put you in the left seat from day one. Most DECs do ok, but some (including myself) struggled to adapt to a new operation and new airplane while being a rusty pilot. I got through it, but just know going in that you are in the problematic demographic profile.
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Glad to see you back in the saddle, man.
 
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