What would you do, and why? 121 vs 135...
- Thread starter TexasFlyer
- Start date
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
Not sure if this is still the case now that hiring has slowed down industry-wide, but last year most regionals were not hiring FOs, or were only hiring them in very limited numbers because of how short they were on captains. So it's possible Envoy may still only be hiring direct entry captains.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Silver sounds like a good idea to get your currency and not sacrifice living in TPA. I would assume hiring would resume shortly.
BravoHotel
Well-Known Member
There is good and bad in everything. I am on medical leave from Flexjet right now. Flying a desk at the Air Force. But I like Flexjet, I have flown both the Phenom and the Challenger. Let me know if there are any questions.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
I think at this point, you just need a flying job, but only having 12-13 days off a month and commuting on some of those as a DEC is going to kill priority #1. At least flexjet offers positive space travel. If you go to Envoy, bank the bonus so you have options to leave if something better comes up.
What the heck else would one do with such a bonus? Buy a new $90k pickup trash?
Oh, wait. Yeah... I guess that IS good advice these days.
T/O w/FSII
Well-Known Member
As a 135 guy who went to a major, I’d never recommend a regional over Flex.
Go flex and don’t look back. Commuting like that would be hell.
Go flex and don’t look back. Commuting like that would be hell.
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
You might consider Frontier with priorities 1 and 3. It isn’t for everyone, and things aren’t perfect there, but it might be worth looking. They have a TPA base. There are a few Frontier people on this board, and a considerable number on Reddit; you might send up the BatSignal and get some info.
Notice I have a hard time straight up recommending it, take that for what it’s worth
Soo at the zoo currently.
1) good luck getting awarded TPA…its one of the more senior bases with virtually everyone there trying to stay. Haven’t seen much movement there in 18 months. New hires have been sent by in large to SJU (you read that right), CLE and CVG where our fearless leaders determined day turns shall await for the foreseeable future….
3) it can be a pretty lax/or productive schedule. Depending what you value. The trips generally suck (5 hours daily credit is the going rate…but often much less…see my 3 day 11.51 credit trips), whereas day turns can yield 6-7 pretty regularly. So, reasonably, you can find something that allows you to hit you goals. Our flexibility in schedules, trades, etc is one of the few areas the zoo excels.
As far as hires go, it never hurts to apply but I will caution you…they just implemented a “training contract” of about 68k unless your from one of their cadet farms…of which, latest koolaid suggests has 500ish pilots in the pipeline awaiting class dates. Hard to tell though, we really need experience people outside that though.
Its alot of things, and frustrating much of the time, but once you find your groove…its not that bad, certainly alot less stress than DEC after that hiatus, and really good people here youll share the office with.
YMMV of course, congrats on the medical. Im glad wherever you end up, youre where you belong…flying
I'm not picking on YOU @Boots2Wings, but THIS is one of the reasons I don't think I could ever be a part 121 driver. I'm not good at all this coded stuff and all these pay-rate convolutions and variables. Variables in physics analyses are one thing. But for pay, I ain't got the bandwidth or time for that stuff. I like a yearly salary, with two expected and assumed checks per month. Well, I like a yearly salary plus flight day kickers.
Maybe I need to go buy a box of Cracker Jacks and get me a secret decoder ring.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
You get a guarantee and you get paid twice a month. It’s not hard, unless you work for American Airlines.
Boots2Wings
Just happy to be here.
121, Im learning, is as complicated as YOUR willing to make it. Like anything, the most efficient way to earn, what effectively is a garenteed salary, is to play the game. If im awarded 14 days off, in what makes my salary, but i can move it around to make the same salary for 18 days off. Thats a win, albeit one that requires some work.
The work and the workday is WAY easier than 135, but can be more complicated in the secondary tasks (scheduling, commuting, bidding, etc).
gliderboy
Well-Known Member
When looking for a job it's a good idea to put yourself in the position of the guy (or gal) doing the hiring and think what you'd do in their place if someone who hasn't flown in seven years asked you for a job. Would you put your company's future in the hands of someone who hasn't flown for seven years? I wouldn't.
Maybe try to get on at a FedEx feeder flying Caravans, you know, single pilot in all weather, and see if your skills are still where they need to be, get current and then approach recruiters when you have a viable resume.
I flew for a Pt. 135 Caravan outfit and we had to fire a number of guys who said they had 121 time but completely fell apart when they got up there all by their lonesome in bad weather. A couple of others faked injury or illness to avoid flying. And then there were the obligatory "I-don't-trust-the-maintenance-here" types.
Anyway, good luck.
Maybe try to get on at a FedEx feeder flying Caravans, you know, single pilot in all weather, and see if your skills are still where they need to be, get current and then approach recruiters when you have a viable resume.
I flew for a Pt. 135 Caravan outfit and we had to fire a number of guys who said they had 121 time but completely fell apart when they got up there all by their lonesome in bad weather. A couple of others faked injury or illness to avoid flying. And then there were the obligatory "I-don't-trust-the-maintenance-here" types.
Anyway, good luck.
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
I wholeheartedly disagree… but that’s just my opinion.
🦈💜
All dragon~
In my experience, you're going to have a really tough time with #1 unless you're willing to entertain some pretty out-there options.
I left my regional in 2022 as a seven year captain (I had surgery in 2021 and wasn't ready to come back to the land of 16+ hour days at the end of 12 weeks of FMLA). When I was ready to come back to the industry eight months later, nobody was interested in me, so I came back to my current shop with longevity pay but no seniority.
I love my plane, I love my crews. My FOs are great, trips are interesting sometimes, and I even like the company.
But the schedules are brutal and relentless. I live in base, but I'm going to be on 3am short call reserve (4-6 on, 1-2 off) for at least another year and a half, and they're calling me every morning at 3am with a 5am show for a 12, 13, 14+ hour day. For someone who's nocturnal and all about quality-of-life, it's pretty soul-killing. I've gained 20 pounds and lost all my fitness. For a (former?) athlete, that's pretty tough. I have no life outside of work, other than some classes I'm taking and occasional vegetative gaming. (And my writing)
I also have to fight every day to not be bitter and gross, or become one of "those" captains—it definitely takes a toll on my sense of well-being, and makes it hard to be happy. (And I used to pretty much always be happy.)
Ultimately, you have options, but your experience might not gain you as much as you'd hope, and DEC might not be as enjoyable as you think. And while other operators may differ, I find those priorities (which I share) incompatible with my experience of the industry.
Thanks for the tag, @Ian_J.
TexasFlyer
Living the Dream (well at least trying to)
I think you hot the nail on the head. I was at PSA 2013 to 2018 (with a stint at Mesa in the middle of that).
Even with 3 or 4 legs at PSA, I don't think I ever did over 9 hours and most days were 5 to 7 hours tops. My reserve time everywhere was never more than 3 months and most days my phone never rang as an FO. I barely got my consolidation hours in on time after IOE. I think that's what it's called.
At Mesa I did 1 or 2 legs normally with 4 to 5 hours as the legs were long and efficient. E175 there was nice. The CRJ guys there worked much more I heard.
If I was doing 12+ hours days, every day. I would be very unhappy long term and frankly would not stick around. It's why I hesitate do to 91k/135 since I hear that's the norm there. I love to fly. But also love my time to rest properly and always be on my A game.
Have the regionals changed that much to where 10+ hours is the norm? I don't want to be using the ALPA App every day to track the rest limitations as I'm being pushed so hard that the App becomes used weekly, versus prior I knew it existed and never once had to reference it.
I will also "live in base" if I go Envoy. Once in DFW or PHX I would rent an apartment and then only try to go "home" during one block of time a month. I'm single. No family to care for other than monitor my mom from afar and mange rental properties from afar (not ideal, but can be done). So I can tough that out until I get MIA in the very distant future as then MIA from TPA isn't bad.
I'm leaning toward Envoy just because that world is known to me from prior experience. But my experience was at a time where we had plenty of reserves most times and most flying covered. I also know that being in my 50s now. If I go to Envoy now, I can always move on if it's a vastly different world than it was 7 years ago. But if I go to FJ and don't like it after a couple years if giving it a good effort, I won't be going to Envoy since I feel at my age I need to do it now or never for the 121 World. 135 will always be there. I'd also bring a few years of longevity with me to Envoy, for what ever that's worth (a bit more vacation seems is all that's worth).
Enjoying the replies here. Keeps me thinking as I will make a decision before May 1st. And once I decide, I stop applying elsewhere and I will commit to at least 24 months no matter where I go before I decide if it's my forever home or a home I need to abandon.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Like @CoffeeIcePapers said, it really isn't terribly complex. Even I kinda understand it now. I think the hardest thing to wrap my head around until I actually saw it in the wild was block time vs credit vs pay. Block time is what the FAA is concerned with, and what you actually flew (or taxied). Nobody really cares about block time, other than folks who are trying to work an app somewhere else. And obviously the company cares about it eventually if you start running into FAR limits. Credit is what the company builds monthly schedules on, i.e. there is typically a minimum credit, max credit, and somewhere in between. Pay is ultimately what you actually get paid. So for a vanilla example, you might have a 2 day trip that is scheduled at daily guarantee. Let's say that is 5:15/day. So at the very minimum, regardless of what you do, including misconnecting or being bought off the trip by training/OE, you will get 10:30 of credit, and of pay for those 10:30 hrs flown or not flown. If you actually fly the trip, maybe you only block 4:45 each day. You still get credited and paid for 10:30. Pay is what it is, and credit is towards your monthly "minimum" of work. Now lets say that the trip was a holiday, and now you are getting 200% pay. Block was still 9:30, credit is still 10:30, but pay is now 21 hrs. *mileage may vary by contract, but that is the gist. Perhaps that clarifies what is a somewhat arcane system of numbers
I will say that the way my company derives its bi-monthly paychecks is beyond "complicated" and is a real financial Rube Goldberg exercise
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TexasFlyer
Living the Dream (well at least trying to)
One thing I remember was how I had to email or call crew pay monthly to fix my credit for proper pay when my checks were always short. Never once had the error in my favor. So it's even complex for crew pay to track block vs credit vs all the other variables. But that took up much less of my time versus the line bidding. I remember line bidding for hours on end to preference what I wanted. And then always making sure I could be off for the one day of schedule adjustment period so I could swap around what I wanted and be on the computer or ipad doing it in live time all day until I was satisfied. Tedious. Annoying. But all part of the process to enjoy the flying. Oh my. Looking forward to all that again. PBS at Mesa, so much nicer once I figure out how to write the crazy codes correctly to get what I wanted. Hope Envoy gets PBS going soon. Okay. Sore topic at both PSA and Envoy. I should avoid that topic!
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I guess I have been fortunate, probably mostly because the majority of my trips don't overblock, and I've had minimal changes to my lines. That and I'm absolutely horrible about checking this kind of stuff, and for all I know, I could have been paid half of what I earned. Need to get better about checking for sure. Especially now that it is more than make believe money.
We just had our first PBS bid. I hear you about line bidding. I didn't do it long enough to get good at it, but man, there were some people (probably like yourself), who were absolute chess masters. I was more like the losing player in checkers. But it was super super super time consuming at our shop. It would be the middle of the month before all the step trade windows were done, and you finally knew your schedule. There are some valid complaints about what PBS has given us, but as a junior FO (that isn't trying to fly a ton), I was pretty happy with what 10 seconds of effort got me (compared to the previous hour or two)
TexasFlyer
Living the Dream (well at least trying to)
I was such a chess master that I leaned how to end up dropping down to 68 minimum allowable scheduled credit hours via the adjustment period and then picking up critical time and open time to get back to around 76 hours scheduled block time but my actual credit would be around 115 hours! And then with block or better I'd actually fly around 72 hours but get paid for the 115 hours! It's a dirty little secret how to do that at PSA. Not sure of they still are able to do that, but I assume until PBS happens they can if the knowledge of how to do it been passed down to the new folks. The company hates the part of of the Contact that allows that!
alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
With the pilot market tightening I’d say go 121, especially if you’ll get pic.
