ATP before becoming a regional first officer?

[esa17]

esa17, you are obviously a with little to no education. csel cmel INST cfi cfii mei. have about 500 over atp requirements.
try something new, read a book. I recomend, applied economics, thinking beyond stage one. by thomas sowell.
so you definately don't have a college education

Did you miss that part about supply and demand? How about that pesky "shift" key or that nagging spell check?

In addition to being a College grad I'm pretty much out of FAA sponsored letters behind my name save that dang IA. Save your personal attacks for those less able, willing, and qualified to respond.

 

[Heath]

As someone who was in Marvin's training class at Colgan and sat in the back of the sim for one of his sessions, I can say that this law wouldn't have changed a thing. Some people just can't multi-task and fall apart when you throw them a curve.

What really needs to change is the system of how we deal with checkride failures. Currently, if you start gettin' behind the plane, your head catches fire, and then you blow a single-engine ILS, you get a pink-slip, an hour in the sim, a good night's sleep, and return the next day to just start the ride at marker, fly the ILS to the ground and you're done, with a blemish on your record.

How many of you in 121 (or anywhere else for that matter) know someone on line the everyone talks about b/c they have no business behind the controls? How many have you seen bust out and be removed from the job? I'd bet a PBR that number's zero.

Our training environment is set to maybe bust you once, but rarely does it weed out anyone. Marvin was a great guy, and I really liked him. But he (and all the other pax and crew) would still be alive today if the training system had pulled him off the line at any of several red-flag moments along his training at Colgan. And before anyone bashes only Colgan's training, I've since moved on and been around long enough now to see that their training department works just like it does at every other airline out there.

We need a better system of training that facilitates the weeding out if the weak pilots. Until that happens, all this other stuff is just theatrics.

As has already been stated, rare is the instance when one could get hired with less than 1,500 anyway. This bill will have no effect on safety, wages, or anything else shy of the occassional 07 hiring binge that might have sprung up.

Same ****, different day, and the politicians can act like they've done something while the same weak pilots are still out there waiting for they're 3 mistakes to line up on the same flight and kill another load clueless purveyors of Travelocity.

 

[RPJ]

I honestly believe that if the crew in the Colgan crash were not talking about extraneous topics and were 100% focused on the task at hand when they started shooting that approach, this accident would of never happened. The CA may of had a blemished training record and the FO may of not had the experience that everyone wanted her to have but I honestly feel, with every emotion in my body, that if the crew would of honored the sterile cockpit below 10k (or at very least the start of the approach) this would of been a non-issue.

Everyone knows when you are distracted with crap that does not have to do with your flight, you are not flying at the top of your game. Combined with being in a very critical phase of flight with the addition of poor wx equals bad news. There should of been more emphasis placed on crew discipline.

 

[Polar742]

How many of you in 121 (or anywhere else for that matter) know someone on line the everyone talks about b/c they have no business behind the controls? How many have you seen bust out and be removed from the job? I'd bet a PBR that number's zero.

I'd like a case of beer please.

I've seen guys with 10k+ TT washed out from recurrent failures.

New hires not cut the mustard.

In a pilot group of just 200, I know of several that have failed out from recurrent.

I've seen this at 2 companies.

So, unless you have empirical evidence of you're claim, I'd say you're misspoken.

Can people have a bad day? Yes. Can some slip through the cracks? Sure.

To say that there are no washouts is completely false.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I agree with Polar. I know a guy who was hired by Chautauqua in 96', paid his $10,000 to FSI for Jetstream training, failed out and lost his $10 grand.

Ouch!

 

[Polar742]

I agree with Polar. I know a guy who was hired by Chautauqua in 96', paid his $10,000 to FSI for Jetstream training, failed out and lost his $10 grand.

Ouch!

Wow.

That was an expensive spanking. If you remember (I realize at your age that might be a big ask ), what were said individuals quals? As I remember, until us unwashed lowtimers showed up, circa 1998, 2500TT or so was what I remember hearing was competitive mins to get the interview for the 13k/yr FO gig.

You missed a helluva week buddy.

 

[aloft]

Wow. a lot has been missed. This is just bring the govt into the industry even more. A bill written under the premise of "safety".

Safety must be regulated, bro. There is no financial incentive for the carriers to be safe. Quite the opposite. If they could, they'd dump many safety practices in a minute. SOMEBODY'S got to look out for the flying public, and once again, it's them "durn liburuls".

This bill written by politicians are so ignorant of aviation it should make every pilot angry.

Huh. I wonder why EVERY airline pilot who testified before Congress on the matter -- including ALPA President Prater and "Miracle on the Hudson" FO Jeffrey Skiles -- were extremely vocal in their support of this measure? They all said an ATP should be the bare minimum.

 

[Bumblebee]

They all said an ATP should be the bare minimum.

It is (ATP) Airline Transport Pilot not (ATC) Airline Transport Captain or (ATT)Airline Transport Trainee...just sayin'irate:

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Well my young friend,

If I remember correctly -- and it has been a while -- this fellow had been a corporate pilot. I seem to recall he flew a Falcon or a Hawker or some such thing. Wish I could remember his name. I'd love to see if he was on Facebook or something.

Anyhow, he made it through ground and about halfway through the simulator before they cut him loose. He had several thousand hours. In 1996 the minimums at Chautauqua for a J31 F/O position were 1500 TT and 500 ME, but most people had significantly more.

Can you imagine that today? 1500TT/500ME AND $10,000 cash?? It's a whole different world isn't it?

In 2002 I had just been furloughed by Airways and was in a Dornier 328 (turboprop) class for PSA Airlines. The guy who sat in front of me was furloughed from TWA where he was an MD80 F/O.

He failed out and they sent him home. Sad. (Fortunately PFT was long gone by the time that happened).

Glad you had a nice week. I'm sure you were extremely popular with your Boeing 747 stories. I guess size DOES matter.

Maybe one of these days you'll convince me to go with you. But we'd have to rent a flashy car or something because my airplane is much smaller than yours.

Zap

Wow.

That was an expensive spanking. If you remember (I realize at your age that might be a big ask ), what were said individuals quals? As I remember, until us unwashed lowtimers showed up, circa 1998, 2500TT or so was what I remember hearing was competitive mins to get the interview for the 13k/yr FO gig.

You missed a helluva week buddy.

 

[Polar742]

Well my young friend,

If I remember correctly -- and it has been a while -- this fellow had been a corporate pilot. I seem to recall he flew a Falcon or a Hawker or some such thing. Wish I could remember his name. I'd love to see if he was on Facebook or something.

Anyhow, he made it through ground and about halfway through the simulator before they cut him loose. He had several thousand hours. In 1996 the minimums at Chautauqua for a J31 F/O position were 1500 TT and 500 ME, but most people had significantly more.

Can you imagine that today? 1500TT/500ME AND $10,000 cash?? It's a whole different world isn't it?

In 2002 I had just been furloughed by Airways and was in a Dornier 328 (turboprop) class for PSA Airlines. The guy who sat in front of me was furloughed from TWA where he was an MD80 F/O.

He failed out and they sent him home. Sad. (Fortunately PFT was long gone by the time that happened).

Thanks for that history, I couldn't remember it exactly, and I wasn't there.

It's amazing how the up-and-down cycles set up the industry, and who ends up where.

Glad you had a nice week. I'm sure you were extremely popular with your Boeing 747 stories. I guess size DOES matter.

Maybe one of these days you'll convince me to go with you. But we'd have to rent a flashy car or something because my airplane is much smaller than yours.

Zap

I was incredibly boring, per my usual self. I did have some great talks with others though. The misses was far more popular, since she's far better looking and has a far better persona, than I.

The wife already has plans for 2010, so I guess I do too. We're planning on renting a mundane whip and going to see the Hoover Dam and the Canyon. Should be some open seats.

Don't you owe me some beer for that Maslow reference anyway?

Later Bud. :beer:

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The minute that Maslow reference starts to reap any rewards I will send you a CASE of your favorite... and that's a promise my friend!

Don't you owe me some beer for that Maslow reference anyway?

 

[Bumblebee]

I was incredibly boring, per my usual self. I did have some great talks with others though. The misses was far more popular, since she's far better looking and has a far better persona, than I.

I really did like your wife, dude, no wonder you always have a smile on your face... I enjoyed seeing you as well! Tell her hello, and Winnie and I look forward to next year (hopefully we both can make it)

 

[Trip7]

Well my young friend,

If I remember correctly -- and it has been a while -- this fellow had been a corporate pilot. I seem to recall he flew a Falcon or a Hawker or some such thing. Wish I could remember his name. I'd love to see if he was on Facebook or something.

Anyhow, he made it through ground and about halfway through the simulator before they cut him loose. He had several thousand hours. In 1996 the minimums at Chautauqua for a J31 F/O position were 1500 TT and 500 ME, but most people had significantly more.

Can you imagine that today? 1500TT/500ME AND $10,000 cash?? It's a whole different world isn't it?

In 2002 I had just been furloughed by Airways and was in a Dornier 328 (turboprop) class for PSA Airlines. The guy who sat in front of me was furloughed from TWA where he was an MD80 F/O.

He failed out and they sent him home. Sad. (Fortunately PFT was long gone by the time that happened).

Glad you had a nice week. I'm sure you were extremely popular with your Boeing 747 stories. I guess size DOES matter.

Maybe one of these days you'll convince me to go with you. But we'd have to rent a flashy car or something because my airplane is much smaller than yours.

Zap

It's funny how people like to ridicule the young pilots of today, saying we have SJS and the like, when stuff like this happened in the past.

 

[meyers9163]

It's funny how people like to ridicule the young pilots of today, saying we have SJS and the like, when stuff like this happened in the past.

However there are many whom back then realized many things that many today do not. Do you really think that many would have stuck it out for 1500 and be where they are today? How senior could you be at ASA if the hours were higher? You know you would have sucked it up and got to your 1500 hours and got your job. However many would not have. Many who were flying on the weekends just decided, "Hell I have 250 hours I can be an airline pilot." Many of whom did not put much thought into it and many whom continue to drag down the industry and lack a desire to make things better.... I however do not think you are in that crowd but there are many whom are....


Think how much better things could be now if the requirements were always at the level they were 5 years ago....

 

[Bandit_Driver]

The flying pilot that night was a dude who had about 300 hour doing something OTHER than sitting in a controlled airline environment. A guy who may have never seen a "real" stall outside of his student pilot days, and a guy who had very little experience outside of highly structured 121 training programs.

To say that that crash wouldn't have happened if the flying pilot had spent some time (ie 300 to 1500 hours) doing other stuff may or may not be true, but there is a much higher likelihood that 1200 hours of CFI/Pipeline Patrol/Banner Tow/135 freight would have opened his eyes to areas a lot closer to the edge of the envelope.

I agree, you learn a lot by teaching and flying Single pilot ops.

 

[Cruise]

esa17, you are obviously a with little to no education. csel cmel INST cfi cfii mei. have about 500 over atp requirements.
try something new, read a book. I recomend, applied economics, thinking beyond stage one. by thomas sowell.
so you definately don't have a college education

Wow, I'd recommend you do a little spell checking before ripping on someone else's education (or lack thereof); unless, of course, you want to look like the fool you're trying to educate.

I'm just saying…

 

[fo4ever]

op:

Love it, Charlie!

Can you pass the butter?

 

[derg]

Love it, Charlie!

Can you pass the butter?

Don't forget the salt! I prefer sel du mer, but whatever you have is good!

 

[Kyle3309TX]

I'm not really making any point here, but 1500hrs before being a FO?? I have to do 3000hrs before becoming a therapist

Kyle

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Just goes to show you how times have changed.