91 cargo flying
- Thread starter pwa
- Start date
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/1990/Rowhuff.pdf
"However, we must caution that if a Part 91 flight is assigned by a Part 135 certificate holder, and the Part 91 flight precedes a Part 135 flight, which is also assigned by the certificate holder, then the flight time of the Part 91 flight is considered "other commercial flying”. The flight time in "other commercial flying" must be counted against the daily flight time limitations under Part 135. If the Part 91 flight occurs after the Part 135 flight, the flight time of the Part 91 is not counted against the daily flight time limitations of Part 135, but will be counted against the pilot's monthly, quarterly, and yearly flight time limitations. Additionally, the Part 91 flight may affect the availability of the crew for a subsequent Part 135 flight, because the general rule is that a Part 91 flight may not be conducted during a required rest period if that flight is assigned by the certificate holder."
Do what you want, but if you ding an airplane in the process of exceeding a flight/duty time limitation you will probably be hung out to dry. It is very easy for the NTSB to figure this stuff out.
Also remember per the Chief Counsel that flight time is block to block and any delays enroute from block to block count toward your flight and duty times, such as de-icing the airplane.
"However, we must caution that if a Part 91 flight is assigned by a Part 135 certificate holder, and the Part 91 flight precedes a Part 135 flight, which is also assigned by the certificate holder, then the flight time of the Part 91 flight is considered "other commercial flying”. The flight time in "other commercial flying" must be counted against the daily flight time limitations under Part 135. If the Part 91 flight occurs after the Part 135 flight, the flight time of the Part 91 is not counted against the daily flight time limitations of Part 135, but will be counted against the pilot's monthly, quarterly, and yearly flight time limitations. Additionally, the Part 91 flight may affect the availability of the crew for a subsequent Part 135 flight, because the general rule is that a Part 91 flight may not be conducted during a required rest period if that flight is assigned by the certificate holder."
Do what you want, but if you ding an airplane in the process of exceeding a flight/duty time limitation you will probably be hung out to dry. It is very easy for the NTSB to figure this stuff out.
Also remember per the Chief Counsel that flight time is block to block and any delays enroute from block to block count toward your flight and duty times, such as de-icing the airplane.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Ya know, I've always heard the same thing, and did the same thing, its great for when you need to pick up freight but you'd be stuck at the airport in the fog, but I'm having the damndest time proving that a flight who's sole purpose is to pick up cargo isn't a 135 run. Yes its simple - no cargo = part 91, but where does it say that? Is there an LOI saying "no work, no 135?" I just spent about an hour looking through 135 trying to find some way to show that I could depart part 91 to pick up cargo, and I can't really figure out a way to prove it? Am I going crazy, or just over analyzing this?
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
119.1
(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to—
...
(3) Ferry or training flights;
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Thank you. I looked through 119, but I must have glossed over this. I appreciate it, I thought I was taking crazy pills.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I hate it when that happens.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
FAA legal counsel and administrative court decisions tend to consider any flight in furtherance of your cargo/passenger carrying operation as a part 135 flight. Thats not how most operators consider it, but that is what Cpt Cook was trying to get at. I'll try to get links for the decisions.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
The way we(Flight Express) operate is:
Empty: part 91
Loaded: part 135
Once a month we have line that goes from Orlando to Boston in a Baron. I may be off on the details, but the assignment is 13 hours duty and 9.6 hours flight time. Part 135 up, part 91 on the end on the way back. We've even had guys do 16 in 24 ferrying. Which is just nuts. I would need gallons of Mountain Dew and SlimJims.
Ferrying is ferrying is ferrying, and that is under part 91. I'm not up on 121 regs, but I'm 90% positive that airlines are under part 91 as well when ferrying.
Empty: part 91
Loaded: part 135
Once a month we have line that goes from Orlando to Boston in a Baron. I may be off on the details, but the assignment is 13 hours duty and 9.6 hours flight time. Part 135 up, part 91 on the end on the way back. We've even had guys do 16 in 24 ferrying. Which is just nuts. I would need gallons of Mountain Dew and SlimJims.
Ferrying is ferrying is ferrying, and that is under part 91. I'm not up on 121 regs, but I'm 90% positive that airlines are under part 91 as well when ferrying.
Is that a nuke run?
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
FAA Chief Counsel sees it different-it depends. If you are really doing it this way you may be illegal depending on the leg. Reference is in my post above.
"However, we must caution that if a Part 91 flight is assigned by a Part 135 certificate holder, and the Part 91 flight precedes a Part 135 flight, which is also assigned by the certificate holder, then the flight time of the Part 91 flight is considered "other commercial flying”. The flight time in "other commercial flying" must be counted against the daily flight time limitations under Part 135. If the Part 91 flight occurs after the Part 135 flight, the flight time of the Part 91 is not counted against the daily flight time limitations of Part 135, but will be counted against the pilot's monthly, quarterly, and yearly flight time limitations. Additionally, the Part 91 flight may affect the availability of the crew for a subsequent Part 135 flight, because the general rule is that a Part 91 flight may not be conducted during a required rest period if that flight is assigned by the certificate holder."
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I think so, but I don't know for sure. It's only one weekend a month is all I know.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Right, part 135 to boston, part 91 back to Orlando. Legal. The pilot that does this only does it once a month with maybe 30 hours a month doing training, so he's alright on the montly/quarterly/yearly limit too, though he's come close a couple times when our turnover is crazy.
Thanks for the source though because when you just read the reg, it's challenging to discern that.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
We kind of work it the same as FLX. Empty is 91, loaded is 135. We manage aircraft also though, so I actually keep a separate column on my duty sheet for pt 91 flying. The weird thing is working for a 135 operator, most months I have more pt 91 flying than i do 135 flying.
Yeah, those long ass ferry flights suck. My record is 14.8 in one day taking a 185 amphib from new orleans to new hampshire. The horrible thing was once i got to PSM, all the bars were closed. I was beyond pissed.
Yeah, those long ass ferry flights suck. My record is 14.8 in one day taking a 185 amphib from new orleans to new hampshire. The horrible thing was once i got to PSM, all the bars were closed. I was beyond pissed.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I know you probably mean it, but the way you write it could be interpreted that if you are empty the time does not count. Again, read the FAA Chief Counsel opinion if this is what you mean. Also, if your first leg is empty it is "other commercial flying" and counts as commercial flying.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. The empty legs count as commercial flying. Its not one of them deals where we've been flying 8 hours then count the hour ride home as pt 91. We're not that scumbaggish; Although, I know that happens, and I like to think ive been around the block enough times to not have to play that game.
As far as the 15 hours in one day thing goes, thats for a completely different flight. I think where the dis-connect is coming from here is for repo flights. I've always been told if the flight is in furtherance of a revenue flight, then its 135, bags or not, as far as counting time is concerned. IE: If i leave the base empty to go to KXXX to pick up work, that counts as 135 time towards my 8 hours; however, if im told by my company to fly a plane thats not on our certificate, or that we're not being paid to fly, then I can go as long as i care to.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I succumbed to "get-their-itis" when I finished my season of aerial survey flying last summer. Flew from El Paso to Daytona Beach with a STUPID crazy headwind and IMC. Planned to stop at 4 airports for fuel and total flight time was going to be 10 hours. Actual was 8 airports(6 in the middle of the night, not sure if I'd even be able to get in or get gas) and 18.5 hours(easily 22 hour duty time). I actually felt completely fine until Birmingham. The last leg was a real struggle to stay awake. The sun and turbulence saved that day, though I think I would have just gotten a hotel in Birmingham honestly. One of those "never again" things to stuff in the ol' experience tool box for future ADM situations.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Yeah, this wasnt one of those "never again" type deals, more of WTF was i thinking. The "never again" was when i took a wagon on wheels to Mane with a whole 5 hours of tail dragger time, and a front blowing 30kt winds. I stopped in BHM both times BTW, and still go there quite often. You know crazy Bob up there?
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
A strong head wind heading east in those parts? Man, just wasn't your day.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I figured as much. Unfortunately people sometimes take a kernel of what they read/hear and run with it... such as part 91 empty... this must mean if I'm empty the flight time and duty time does not count in any situation.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
As in Bob from Flight Express? If it's the same guy, I've heard the stories. He was in OMA for about a month when we were first starting the STP-OMA and OMA-APA airnet runs. Great guy, very eccentric, but it sounds like he gets a bit carried away sometimes to say the least. haha
Similar threads
