Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[word302]

It’s a “long game” where you have to preposition yourself for when the market swings the other way.

Train, hone and prep during downturns, be the first of the wave when it comes and it will come again which is why we call it a “wave”

But with WheelsUp dumping some pilots, mess letting some go, there’s a lot of people with multi engine turbine, competing for fewer jobs.

Patience.

Freudian slip?

 

[derg]

Freudian slip?

I’m on an iPhone. What?

 

[derg]

Oh Mess instead of Mesa. Unintentional but funny.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Oh Mess instead of Mesa. Unintentional but funny.

Some of the funniest (and best) people I know are LAMAs, including our mutual tall friend.

You and I and Lurch should get together in Scottsdale one of these days.

 

[🦈💜]

Patience.

The simple fact is that patience and survival are mutually exclusive, long-term. There's a big cost for hanging in here, and there will come a point where either my health (whether physical or mental) suffers catastrophically or I make the call to bail out before that happens.

I've been working my tail off as a professional pilot for more than a decade now. And yes, I know many people have had it worse for much longer. There are also many, many people who breezed right through into a major who will never experience any of this. (Which is good) But I am not many other people—I can't do this forever, and I say that at the end of four whole days off, one of the longest blocks of off days in recent memory.

I've been flying for more than a quarter of a century, and all of the time, blood, sweat and effort I've put into making myself a better aviator, making myself employable, and paying the bills along the way has actually been a total blast. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

But the current state is untenable. It's uniquely unhealthy, and I have no time to live my non-work life. No furry cons—the last con I went to was in 2016. I don't even have time for local fur meets. No hockey (at all), very little time for personal/professional development that I can't do from a hotel room or a seat in a terminal somewhere).

Career fairs? Really? I barely have time to update my logbook.

 

[derg]

At the end of the day, the cold hard truth is that no job “up the food chain” is going to seek you out, especially for a highly competitive carrier.

Besides building flight time, stability at an employer and persevering, there aren’t any other alternatives.

There aren’t.

If a job fair to get noticed by one of the few airlines still hiring gets you noticed, you should go to the job fair.

One of the last majors hiring at the moment is going to have 300 slots available. I can guarantee all 300 slots will be filled in about ten minutes, the ones that do not qualify will be cancelled and those slots will be refilled with competitive candidates minutes later.

That’s the reality that we’re dealing with.

You know I love you to death but I need you to bring the chapter on how tough the regionals are and what you’re not willing to do to a close.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

The simple fact is that patience and survival are mutually exclusive, long-term. There's a big cost for hanging in here, and there will come a point where either my health (whether physical or mental) suffers catastrophically or I make the call to bail out before that happens.

I've been working my tail off as a professional pilot for more than a decade now. And yes, I know many people have had it worse for much longer. There are also many, many people who breezed right through into a major who will never experience any of this. (Which is good) But I am not many other people—I can't do this forever, and I say that at the end of four whole days off, one of the longest blocks of off days in recent memory.

I've been flying for more than a quarter of a century, and all of the time, blood, sweat and effort I've put into making myself a better aviator, making myself employable, and paying the bills along the way has actually been a total blast. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

But the current state is untenable. It's uniquely unhealthy, and I have no time to live my non-work life. No furry cons—the last con I went to was in 2016. I don't even have time for local fur meets. No hockey (at all), very little time for personal/professional development that I can't do from a hotel room or a seat in a terminal somewhere).

Career fairs? Really? I barely have time to update my logbook.


View attachment 78514

This is my existence at my place of employment. I can't trade days. PBS gives me days on and they are permanent. Then I bid for the RAP window I'd like. I almost always get 0215 RAP. Once I got the 0300 RAP and for June I'm on 1030. For July it's back to the first RAP which is now 0215 RAP.

I'm at 78 hrs worked for a 79 hour guarantee and it's extremely likely I will be called out my last day of reserve to be pushed into 80+ hours of flying primarily day trips with lots of stressful driving to and from the airport during peak Seattle afternoon traffic. I usually get a call around 2PM for a show between 4:30 and 6PM.

Today I'm day sleeping in a hotel. Yesterday I day slept in a hotel. Even though I bid short call I am still assigned red eyes. I think it would be worse on long call since there is so much back side of the clock flying in open time. I'm an athlete so it's very disruptive to my health and well-being. I think I put on about 20# last summer since all I could hold was red eye reserve. That absolutely destroyed me. I'm slowly working the weight off but it's been very challenging with being called out every single day I have been on reserve for June.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The simple fact is that patience and survival are mutually exclusive, long-term. There's a big cost for hanging in here, and there will come a point where either my health (whether physical or mental) suffers catastrophically or I make the call to bail out before that happens.

I've been working my tail off as a professional pilot for more than a decade now. And yes, I know many people have had it worse for much longer. There are also many, many people who breezed right through into a major who will never experience any of this. (Which is good) But I am not many other people—I can't do this forever, and I say that at the end of four whole days off, one of the longest blocks of off days in recent memory.

I've been flying for more than a quarter of a century, and all of the time, blood, sweat and effort I've put into making myself a better aviator, making myself employable, and paying the bills along the way has actually been a total blast. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

But the current state is untenable. It's uniquely unhealthy, and I have no time to live my non-work life. No furry cons—the last con I went to was in 2016. I don't even have time for local fur meets. No hockey (at all), very little time for personal/professional development that I can't do from a hotel room or a seat in a terminal somewhere).

Career fairs? Really? I barely have time to update my logbook.


View attachment 78514

What do you want, precisely?

Serious question, because when I look at this I see something that roughly corresponds to domestic schedules at my employer, maybe with one or two fewer days off and sorry about your non-extant ADG carve-out, a pity you didn’t make 0200 (I think that’s when you get an extra MDG?).

Yes, the duty days are probably shorter due to a combination of the PWA and “actually wanting and sometimes expecting the flying to be done,” but that 3-day on the 24th looks like something I would have flown the snot out of all day every day in my younger and more vulnerable years, and twice on Saturday.

If the answer is “a vacation” then I empathize and I will roundly and loudly condemn your employer for not offering 1 vacation slot per pilot per category per year and doing what they do with vacation to keep pace with your accrual—a random week or two in February, it turns out, is a grand time to be off. That’s crap and you’re right it isn’t healthy. (Labor issues are safety issues and so forth.)

Still, the remainder of it looks bolt-standard to me, with a rotation added on a day off if I remember the codes correctly. You aren’t starving if I remember what the hourly is, and may we never return to those days. Yes, it’s work—a lot of work—but that’s why we call it work, and you might be surprised at what some of the flying looks like at airlines you consider “next steps,” too. Hell, Beef just told you what a junior 737 schedule’s like at the Eskimo. I counted your days off and then I looked at 12 M. here, and came up with the exact same number of days off, believe it or not, as in the X-day table in our PWA, setting aside your late return and the rotation you added.

So, again, what do you want?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This is my existence at my place of employment. I can't trade days. PBS gives me days on and they are permanent. Then I bid for the RAP window I'd like. I almost always get 0215 RAP. Once I got the 0300 RAP and for June I'm on 1030. For July it's back to the first RAP which is now 0215 RAP.

NavBlue?

 

[ShortField]

NavBlue?

Yuuuuuuup

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yuuuuuuup

Woo…woo…hoo!

 

[phill1174]

Have you applied at UPS? The window is open again if you feel like cargo is something you’d be interested in. Idk why the window opened again. We may be the major hiring 300 that Derg is talking about, they don’t tell us anything around here.

It’s a different beast but the schedules are nothing like the garbage you posted and you actually get vacation. A month after my first year here I got a month off for vacation (Thanks IPA for OCV). If it is something you’re interested in I’d also hit up Kelley Lepley (probably slaughtered her name) to get her perspective of life at UPS, and also find time to make a way to OBAP and get some face time.

Even if you don’t apply here find time to go. Just because places have slowed down doesn’t mean the music is over. Get your name and face known and be at the leading edge when hiring kicks back up. A little tip, going EARLY on the last day has been less hectic and you get more time with recruiters since there isn’t a line of guys in suits waiting to have their few mins of elevator pitch time.

 

[Hiboglossi]

What do you want, precisely?

Serious question, because when I look at this I see something that roughly corresponds to domestic schedules at my employer, maybe with one or two fewer days off and sorry about your non-extant ADG carve-out, a pity you didn’t make 0200 (I think that’s when you get an extra MDG?).

Yes, the duty days are probably shorter due to a combination of the PWA and “actually wanting and sometimes expecting the flying to be done,” but that 3-day on the 24th looks like something I would have flown the snot out of all day every day in my younger and more vulnerable years, and twice on Saturday.

If the answer is “a vacation” then I empathize and I will roundly and loudly condemn your employer for not offering 1 vacation slot per pilot per category per year and doing what they do with vacation to keep pace with your accrual—a random week or two in February, it turns out, is a grand time to be off. That’s crap and you’re right it isn’t healthy. (Labor issues are safety issues and so forth.)

Still, the remainder of it looks bolt-standard to me, with a rotation added on a day off if I remember the codes correctly. You aren’t starving if I remember what the hourly is, and may we never return to those days. Yes, it’s work—a lot of work—but that’s why we call it work, and you might be surprised at what some of the flying looks like at airlines you consider “next steps,” too. Hell, Beef just told you what a junior 737 schedule’s like at the Eskimo. I counted your days off and then I looked at 12 M. here, and came up with the exact same number of days off, believe it or not, as in the X-day table in our PWA, setting aside your late return and the rotation you added.

So, again, what do you want?

Honestly, @🦈💜 , while the schedules at ATI can certainly be difficult in their own right, I do wonder if they might be a significant improvement over what you're dealing with now. As was said above in this thread, there's a lot to be said for the 2-weeks-on, 2-weeks off schedule that is the norm here; and while the circadian swaps are a pain at least you wouldn't be permanently stuck with the morning shift and you might not mind the night shifts too much.

Hopefully we're not one of the places you already got a TBNT from. If not I'd definitely recommend applying, assuming you haven't already. Like any company ATI certainly has its drawbacks, but having come here from a regional a little over a year ago, to say it is an enormous improvement over the regionals would be an understatement.

 

[derg]

Have you applied at UPS? The window is open again if you feel like cargo is something you’d be interested in. Idk why the window opened again. We may be the major hiring 300 that Derg is talking about, they don’t tell us anything around here.

It’s a different beast but the schedules are nothing like the garbage you posted and you actually get vacation. A month after my first year here I got a month off for vacation (Thanks IPA for OCV). If it is something you’re interested in I’d also hit up Kelley Lepley (probably slaughtered her name) to get her perspective of life at UPS, and also find time to make a way to OBAP and get some face time.

Even if you don’t apply here find time to go. Just because places have slowed down doesn’t mean the music is over. Get your name and face known and be at the leading edge when hiring kicks back up. A little tip, going EARLY on the last day has been less hectic and you get more time with recruiters since there isn’t a line of guys in suits waiting to have their few mins of elevator pitch time.

Let me clarify. We’re being well more than 390, it’s just we have strict limits on how many people we will be able to talk to at the job fair.

Still 1200+ for the foreseeable future, but the pilot market has “rationalized” somewhat after the regionals stabilized attrition and finally got some captains made.

But the era of the of the R-ATP walking out with the restriction removed and having 3 CJOs that week are a relic of the past.

 

[🦈💜]

What do you want, precisely?

(Warning: Long answer incoming)

What I want? More time at home. Enough time to actually go play a hockey game, go camping, go to a fur con, go sailing or something. I want even a tiny amount of control over my schedule so that I can actually take care of all the "adulting" crap that piles up. It would be nice to have enough time to actually iron my uniforms rather than just pull them out of the dryer and hold them over a boiling kettle before I have to get on the road towards work. You know, I want more than 10-12 days off per month after ten years of flying for a living. I'm ok with 3 day trips. I prefer two days or locals. 4 days suck. Ideally no 5-6 days unless they credited enough to give me a big chunk of days off. But I'd rather have my schedule with locals not look like this:

or this:

You know, in my dream world I'd have less than 11 hours of duty per day on average. I don't mind it now and again, but this is too much fun.

More to the point, what I want is a reason to stay in this job, or suggestions on how to get out. Now, I know a lot of people at majors, LCCs, etc., and I see a lot of their schedules. I see some, occasionally, that look like this. But generally it's time limited, and ultimately their seniority means something. Mine doesn't.

Serious question, because when I look at this I see something that roughly corresponds to domestic schedules at my employer, maybe with one or two fewer days off and sorry about your non-extant ADG carve-out, a pity you didn’t make 0200 (I think that’s when you get an extra MDG?).

With reserve, they only give you additional MDG if they work you that day now (thanks RJ), or they'll swap for a reserve day later in the month.

Yes, the duty days are probably shorter due to a combination of the PWA and “actually wanting and sometimes expecting the flying to be done,” but that 3-day on the 24th looks like something I would have flown the snot out of all day every day in my younger and more vulnerable years, and twice on Saturday.

Yeah, the three day is fine. The five day less so.

If the answer is “a vacation” then I empathize and I will roundly and loudly condemn your employer for not offering 1 vacation slot per pilot per category per year and doing what they do with vacation to keep pace with your accrual—a random week or two in February, it turns out, is a grand time to be off. That’s crap and you’re right it isn’t healthy. (Labor issues are safety issues and so forth.)

Primarily, this. Or the concept of this.

Still, the remainder of it looks bolt-standard to me, with a rotation added on a day off if I remember the codes correctly. You aren’t starving if I remember what the hourly is, and may we never return to those days. Yes, it’s work—a lot of work—but that’s why we call it work, and you might be surprised at what some of the flying looks like at airlines you consider “next steps,” too.

You say this like I don't have friends at every major, ULCC, LCC and so on. I know that Southwest schedules look amazing to me. I've seen a big handful of Delta schedules across different equipment and seniority brackets. American, United, all generally better, even those who are low on the pole. Alaska . . . I may have dodged a bullet, from what I hear. That said, again, seniority there actually means something, and it's a place one can actually both be proud of working and retire from.

As far as "that's why we call it work," I've been working since I was about 13-ish. Not all of it full time, but it was starting when I was 18. I'm not some kid who came to the airlines via daddy paying for college and ATP, I worked my way here. I get the concept.

Hell, Beef just told you what a junior 737 schedule’s like at the Eskimo.

Yep, and it's gross. Sounds pretty familiar. However, I have other CA friends at Alaska who are really happy with their lot in life and they're not a ton more senior. And their schedules all look ok to me. I don't doubt Beefy, and I know there are some issues at his shop rn, but at the end of the day if I was flying this schedule for Alaska, I'd be much more ok with it.

What I want is a job that pays me enough to get by, that I can take pride in, and that gives me at least enough time to wash my clothes. My quality of life during my worst years in tech, and during my first seven years at the regionals, was significantly better. I get frustrated whenever someone tells me I should use my flight benefits, or says "At least it's not a desk job," etc.

If that's actually "unobtanium" in the airlines, then this career is not for me. And that's ok—that's literally a giant part of what I created this thread to discover!

But it's hard for me to believe, as I spend a decent chunk of time actively comparing schedules with friends across the industry, sometimes month-for-month. I also have mainline jumpseaters every few legs who show me their schedules and talk about all the options they have to modify their schedules, give trips back to the company, etc. ("Get your apps in!", ugh)

For the record, my FOs all tell me that every captain they fly with is exhausted, miserable and unhappy, so that part is also not just me.

At this point, the two-week-on, two-week-off schedules that I used to want no part of sound pretty appealing. Hell, the 135 6-on 1-off 14-hour-days in Alaska sound pretty appealing.

So what's the deal? Is it true? Is the whole industry working with no more than 10-12 days off per month, every month? Because that's way worse than a 9-5 where you're home every night. Especially when you're 100% work from home.

 

[🦈💜]

Have you applied at UPS? The window is open again if you feel like cargo is something you’d be interested in. Idk why the window opened again. We may be the major hiring 300 that Derg is talking about, they don’t tell us anything around here.

I actually got my app in basically the day the window opened again, though it was honestly a total accident. I wasn't going to mention it, because UPS has historically been high on my list, but aggressive about the degree. And it's honestly the app, of all of them, that I'm really most hopeful about (but also the one that I feel the most fragile about and, to some degree, the most unqualified for.)

It’s a different beast but the schedules are nothing like the garbage you posted and you actually get vacation.

I really appreciate you saying this, as the vibe I got from @Autothrust Blue was that there was nothing wrong with my schedules, and I was starting to question my sanity. But from what I've seen, it's a type of flying that definitely appeals to me.

A month after my first year here I got a month off for vacation (Thanks IPA for OCV). If it is something you’re interested in I’d also hit up Kelley Lepley (probably slaughtered her name) to get her perspective of life at UPS, and also find time to make a way to OBAP and get some face time.

I think I did message Kelley, but it was years ago now. My brain is so melted lately that I have trouble recalling who's and when's. Someone asked me earlier up in the thread. I need to dig through my sent mail and see if I ever did. I know I have her contact information ... somewhere.

Even if you don’t apply here find time to go. Just because places have slowed down doesn’t mean the music is over. Get your name and face known and be at the leading edge when hiring kicks back up. A little tip, going EARLY on the last day has been less hectic and you get more time with recruiters since there isn’t a line of guys in suits waiting to have their few mins of elevator pitch time.

I truly would love to. OBAP, or especially NGPA or WAI. I have so many friends there, but I haven't been able to figure out how to do it without just calling in sick.

Maybe I'm just being stupid in viewing the whole "lying to the company" thing so strictly, but the thought still feels wrong to me.

 

[🦈💜]

Honestly, @🦈💜 , while the schedules at ATI can certainly be difficult in their own right, I do wonder if they might be a significant improvement over what you're dealing with now. As was said above in this thread, there's a lot to be said for the 2-weeks-on, 2-weeks off schedule that is the norm here; and while the circadian swaps are a pain at least you wouldn't be permanently stuck with the morning shift and you might not mind the night shifts too much.

I've been unsure about ATI, as I've heard very mixed things about ATSG over the years, and I just don't have the level of familiarity with the operation to feel comfortable. That said, I've been trying to do some research over the past few weeks. I don't have my app in with ATI yet, but I'll probably get it in at some point this week.

Hopefully we're not one of the places you already got a TBNT from.

No, the TBNTs were from Atlas (who I knew wasn't hiring, but wanted to get my app in for anyway) and B6, which shut down hiring the day after I applied.

If not I'd definitely recommend applying, assuming you haven't already. Like any company ATI certainly has its drawbacks, but having come here from a regional a little over a year ago, to say it is an enormous improvement over the regionals would be an understatement.

I mean, that sounds great to me.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I told you 10 or so pages ago, it’s ok to leave. I did it. I survived. I actually thrived. I was able to raise my daughters for several years alone as a single dad. I play hockey at least twice a week. Sometimes four times a week. I also work two jobs, not just one. Opportunities to play open up when you aren’t in a hotel.

As I said before, I do not know you. But I do know pilots. One problem with pilots, and with cops (since I am both), is that we let our careers define our identity. It’s not just cops or pilots, but it’s easy to let it happen in these two professions. “What do you do?” “I’m a pilot.” Or, “I’m a cop.” We wear it as a badge of honor. When someone says “what do you do,” nobody answers, “I’m a dad, I play hockey for fun, I love hiking, and dabble in video games.” The next question would be, “no, what do you do? For work?” Like it matters? Who cares??

Maybe you are afraid to leave, because you are afraid of losing your identity. If that is the case, you need to realize your identity is killing you.

Before you get defensive, take a breath and think about this. I say this as someone who has for most of my life let my work mold my identity. Once you realize this is a career and not a crusade, you will approach things with a much clearer mind.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Patience? In a seniority industry? Every day missed is one less days seniority. Cold hard fact. So it’s a harsh advice to say patience. This isn’t some young buck with zits on the face. This is a mid 40s woman who has 20yrs left to mandatory retirement.




And shark, please don’t do ATI. Try to make your next airline jump your permanent home. In the meantime, that’s a horrendous schedule and I’m sorry you are living that. But don’t trade one suck for another suck.

 

[JustinS]

And shark, please don’t do ATI. Try to make your next airline jump your permanent home.

This advice sort of contradicts the advice many have given as SharkHeart has tried to only fixate only on career destinations with specific bases limiting opportunities towards advancement. I know a few pilots who went to ATI in their airline journey. Their experience definitely helped them accelerate their career forward.