Compensation negotiation

[jrh]

Let me shift gears a bit.

Here's a thought exercise.

What are some creative arrangements that would make a lack of hard days off, or lack of overall stability, or lack of amazing airplane, worth it? What have you seen other flight departments doing to make up for the crappy elements?

Limit the total number of days worked in a given period? Give a longer call-out period? Give some sort of benefit unique to the operation, like free widgets from a widget-making company? Throw a stupid amount of money into the salary? Let the pilot's friends and family ride on the jet? Give a ton of vacation time scheduled in bigger chunks? Massive retention bonuses?

Some people here are acting like corporate jobs universally suck, and I don't buy it. I did sales work for four years and if there's one thing that taught me, everything can be sold at the right price. It's simply a matter of finding the right buyer, seller, and price. That's why I titled the thread "compensation negotiation." Saying it's impossible, it sucks, go to the airlines, is not a negotiation.

 

[knot4u]

Let me shift gears a bit.

Here's a thought exercise.

What are some creative arrangements that would make a lack of hard days off, or lack of overall stability, or lack of amazing airplane, worth it? What have you seen other flight departments doing to make up for the crappy elements?

Limit the total number of days worked in a given period? Give a longer call-out period? Give some sort of benefit unique to the operation, like free widgets from a widget-making company? Throw a stupid amount of money into the salary? Let the pilot's friends and family ride on the jet? Give a ton of vacation time scheduled in bigger chunks? Massive retention bonuses?

Some people here are acting like corporate jobs universally suck, and I don't buy it. I did sales work for four years and if there's one thing that taught me, everything can be sold at the right price. It's simply a matter of finding the right buyer, seller, and price. That's why I titled the thread "compensation negotiation." Saying it's impossible, it sucks, go to the airlines, is not a negotiation.

I'll just share a story from a grease monkeys perspective. I used to work for a large 135 operator that also managed airplanes for 91 customers. One day an almost brand new G550 showed up and for some reason I somehow got involved maintaining this very shiny jet. I'd run and taxi airplanes up to a G-IV, but the 550 was bigger and different enough that unless I got actual training I'd insist on a pilot to come in for anything other than a quick idle check. One day I needed to get the airplane out to the blast fence to verify something at full power, a couple days later the pilot shows up after much gnashing of teeth and stomping of feet. He was not happy to be there. Believe it or not I am a people person and by the time we'd briefed what we needed to accomplish and were walking out to the airplane he seemed almost happy. We get in, start the APU, shut the door and just get settled in and prepped in the cockpit. A moment before we were going to start #2 his phone rang and he said he needed to answer the call, whatever, I get paid by the hour. I was not trying to eavesdrop but this guy was sitting literally 36" away from me. It quickly became apparent to me he was trying to explain why buying a house was a bad idea and apartment living was preferable to whoever he was talking to. I recall sitting in the right seat of this brand new fancy $50M jet and pondering about the fact that I was making $60K/yr and he was probably making $200-300K/yr and I had a mortgage. It took me out of the game for a minute or two and next thing I knew #2 was spooling and we went on our merry way to the blast fence, verified whatever it was, and taxied back. While I will say I did not support his choices in his personal life we did become friends. Last time I saw him he was flying a G650 and I have no idea if he ever bought a house.

 

[Richman]

Some people here are acting like corporate jobs universally suck, and I don't buy it. I did sales work for four years and if there's one thing that taught me, everything can be sold at the right price. It's simply a matter of finding the right buyer, seller, and price. That's why I titled the thread "compensation negotiation." Saying it's impossible, it sucks, go to the airlines, is not a negotiation.

They don't universally suck, and like all jobs, they exist on a curve that ranges from utter Earthly Paradise to the 9th circle of Hell from Dante's Inferno.

However....

Corporate aviation being, well, being what it is and pilots' ability to cloister good deals to only their close buddies and/or people with VERY similar backgrounds combine together to provide a very peculiar dynamic.

The short version is the better a corporate job is, the less likely you will hear about it. The top tier jobs you practically have to be born into (you can marry into them, but you'll be low man on the pole), and when someone dies and an opening occurs, you absolutely have to be juiced into that particular program.

By the time the pay & working conditions degrade to where a place actually has to advertise for pilots, you've fallen pretty far down the ladder, and are basically only a couple of steps above a contract pilot.

 

[///AMG]

It quickly became apparent to me he was trying to explain why buying a house was a bad idea and apartment living was preferable to whoever he was talking to. I recall sitting in the right seat of this brand new fancy $50M jet and pondering about the fact that I was making $60K/yr and he was probably making $200-300K/yr and I had a mortgage.

Pilots are dumb with money. I was 100% his end of that call, both times my wife convinced me to buy a house. Those were probably the only really smart financial (non) decisions I ever made. In my defense, both were places we didn't intend to live long term. The first sold and paid off every dollar of debt either of us had (me: cars, her: undergrad and grad school student loans). The second, we still live in 4 years later, with no particular intent to move after all. So I'd say again, pilots are dumb with money.

 

[ppragman]

I feel like the corporate hate is a factor of the demographics of this website. I really enjoyed my corporate job - would have done it indefinitely, it was literally the "target" I had in mind when I was a starry-eyed 1000 hour 207 pilot. "I made it" but I also think the general target of most people who get into flying is "the majors" so anything other than that will always seem "not quite right" to a lot of people regardless of the work rules, lifestyle, etc.

I did the math in my early 20s, at the time the numbers indicated something like only 1 in 5 guys made it to the "really good 121 flying jobs that everybody knows about" so where's everybody else working? There are a lot of crappy jobs, but I think there's a case to be made that there are a lot of really low key, cool jobs, that pay well and treat their people well out there. They're just a little bit harder to find because "flying" isn't what the company does.

For OP, I'm personally willing to trade lack of traditional hard days off for BIG blocks of hard days off. So, maybe I don't get weekends off all the time and I have to be flexible, but... I'll trade being flexible in the summer for 6 weeks off in November and early December so I can go hike, or something like that. A friend of mine basically had personal access to several trips a year for him and his family in the company airplane at a corporate gig as a perk of the job - that seemed pretty cool. Money is good, my schedule is more flexible the higher my salary gets (within reason).

 

[dustoff17]

The issue now, more than when I started in Corporate flying, is that a LOT of Part 91 owners are “biting the hook” with management companies that turn things into Part 91/135. It usually takes the owners about three YEARS to understand the huge downside. In the mean time, as a pilot, you’re hosed on several levels. IMHO

 

[jrh]

I'll just share a story from a grease monkeys perspective. I used to work for a large 135 operator that also managed airplanes for 91 customers. One day an almost brand new G550 showed up and for some reason I somehow got involved maintaining this very shiny jet. I'd run and taxi airplanes up to a G-IV, but the 550 was bigger and different enough that unless I got actual training I'd insist on a pilot to come in for anything other than a quick idle check. One day I needed to get the airplane out to the blast fence to verify something at full power, a couple days later the pilot shows up after much gnashing of teeth and stomping of feet. He was not happy to be there. Believe it or not I am a people person and by the time we'd briefed what we needed to accomplish and were walking out to the airplane he seemed almost happy. We get in, start the APU, shut the door and just get settled in and prepped in the cockpit. A moment before we were going to start #2 his phone rang and he said he needed to answer the call, whatever, I get paid by the hour. I was not trying to eavesdrop but this guy was sitting literally 36" away from me. It quickly became apparent to me he was trying to explain why buying a house was a bad idea and apartment living was preferable to whoever he was talking to. I recall sitting in the right seat of this brand new fancy $50M jet and pondering about the fact that I was making $60K/yr and he was probably making $200-300K/yr and I had a mortgage. It took me out of the game for a minute or two and next thing I knew #2 was spooling and we went on our merry way to the blast fence, verified whatever it was, and taxied back. While I will say I did not support his choices in his personal life we did become friends. Last time I saw him he was flying a G650 and I have no idea if he ever bought a house.

This reminds me of a brief conversation I had with Derg in the Saturday night Zoom chat a while back. I wondered what the median net worth is for senior airline captains nearing retirement.

Lots of people talk about "leaving millions on the table" if one doesn't head to the airlines ASAP. On paper they're right.

I'm curious how this plays out in the real world. I know I won't beat the masses when it comes to stock trading, but I'm pretty sure I'm above average when it comes to judgement and self-control in my personal life. That leads to a tangible gain in net worth, especially compounded over the years. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep. I may or may not have the bank account of a senior airline captain at retirement, but I'm confident I'll be a multi-millionaire, and let's be honest, if you can't figure out how to be happy with millions of dollars to your name, money isn't your problem.

 

[dustoff17]

This reminds me of a brief conversation I had with Derg in the Saturday night Zoom chat a while back. I wondered what the median net worth is for senior airline captains nearing retirement.

Lots of people talk about "leaving millions on the table" if one doesn't head to the airlines ASAP. On paper they're right.

I'm curious how this plays out in the real world. I know I won't beat the masses when it comes to stock trading, but I'm pretty sure I'm above average when it comes to judgement and self-control in my personal life. That leads to a tangible gain in net worth, especially compounded over the years. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep. I may or may not have the bank account of a senior airline captain at retirement, but I'm confident I'll be a multi-millionaire, and let's be honest, if you can't figure out how to be happy with millions of dollars to your name, money isn't your problem.

No, your problem, at least for the time being, is finding the right job that will help you sustain your lifestyle AND allow you to continue building your “multi-million dollar” nest egg!!

And herein lies the rub…..

 

[Kingairer]

This reminds me of a brief conversation I had with Derg in the Saturday night Zoom chat a while back. I wondered what the median net worth is for senior airline captains nearing retirement.

Lots of people talk about "leaving millions on the table" if one doesn't head to the airlines ASAP. On paper they're right.

I'm curious how this plays out in the real world. I know I won't beat the masses when it comes to stock trading, but I'm pretty sure I'm above average when it comes to judgement and self-control in my personal life. That leads to a tangible gain in net worth, especially compounded over the years. It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep. I may or may not have the bank account of a senior airline captain at retirement, but I'm confident I'll be a multi-millionaire, and let's be honest, if you can't figure out how to be happy with millions of dollars to your name, money isn't your problem.

My fear would be having a change of heart a year or two down the road (voluntarily or not) and missing the big wave at the majors and never being able to reach the top of those lists. The amount of money, QOL, and (relative) stability you get with being at a major airline will be hard to match.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

My fear would be having a change of heart a year or two down the road (voluntarily or not) and missing the big wave at the majors and never being able to reach the top of those lists. The amount of money, QOL, and (relative) stability you get with being at a major airline will be hard to match.

It’s clear he’s dead set on not going 121. I’m not sure how many times he needs to say it.

 

[ppragman]

It’s clear he’s dead set on not going 121. I’m not sure how many times he needs to say it.

To be honest? I get it. Personally, I got a lot of satisfaction from actually being involved in the operation in more ways than just flying. The money always looked nice, but I don't know, some people don't want to be "just a number." In 121 your entire professional trajectory is reduced to a single number - your seniority.

For those who want to go that route, more power to them - but I absolutely understand not liking that idea, and not feeling you'd fit-in in that sort of culture. My buddies who are airline guys now spend 90% of their time complaining about the other airline pilots it seems, then complaining about management, the schedule, etc. It's "tres cool" to not "like the job," it's very "cool" to not like the try-hards who enjoy learning or enjoy a challenge. It's "cool" to be the guy who throws up obstacles and says "no" etc - like culturally that's a thing, but this is more. And I'm not talking about safety stuff - I've heard stories now... more than a few, of things like refusing to do a trip because of the catering, and many many stories about strategic sick calls and schedule chicanery to avoid going to work.

And, I get it that's what the contract is for, etc. Even the catering: "hey our contract says we get catering X, getting catering Y is BS" - and I even agree! Ground that thing! I understand. MMMTO is a real thing. But I can completely understand looking at that and thinking, "I don't know if I would fit in in that culture" because I like saying solving problems when I can safely do it and up until my very last flight I really enjoyed flying.

I never flew 121, so I'll have to defer to the judgment of those who did both - but I still hear an awful lot of discontent from those pilots too. The only aspect that seems demonstrably "better" is the money, which I can understand, but I can completely understand looking at that money and thinking, "you know, what I do isn't so bad and it may not be worth it to go fly for the airlines." I was proud of the work I did, and excited about the job! Even when it sucked. I do not see the same level of enthusiasm from many of my friends who ran off to 121. Some yes! Some are absolutely over the moon to be flying 121, but others seem more resigned to "this is the absolute best I can do pay and schedule wise, so the actual job doesn't matter to me."

 

[Kingairer]

To be honest? I get it. Personally, I got a lot of satisfaction from actually being involved in the operation in more ways than just flying. The money always looked nice, but I don't know, some people don't want to be "just a number." In 121 your entire professional trajectory is reduced to a single number - your seniority.

For those who want to go that route, more power to them - but I absolutely understand not liking that idea, and not feeling you'd fit-in in that sort of culture. My buddies who are airline guys now spend 90% of their time complaining about the other airline pilots it seems, then complaining about management, the schedule, etc. It's "tres cool" to not "like the job," it's very "cool" to not like the try-hards who enjoy learning or enjoy a challenge. It's "cool" to be the guy who throws up obstacles and says "no" etc - like culturally that's a thing, but this is more. And I'm not talking about safety stuff - I've heard stories now... more than a few, of things like refusing to do a trip because of the catering, and many many stories about strategic sick calls and schedule chicanery to avoid going to work.

And, I get it that's what the contract is for, etc. Even the catering: "hey our contract says we get catering X, getting catering Y is BS" - and I even agree! Ground that thing! I understand. MMMTO is a real thing. But I can completely understand looking at that and thinking, "I don't know if I would fit in in that culture" because I like saying solving problems when I can safely do it and up until my very last flight I really enjoyed flying.

I never flew 121, so I'll have to defer to the judgment of those who did both - but I still hear an awful lot of discontent from those pilots too. The only aspect that seems demonstrably "better" is the money, which I can understand, but I can completely understand looking at that money and thinking, "you know, what I do isn't so bad and it may not be worth it to go fly for the airlines." I was proud of the work I did, and excited about the job! Even when it sucked. I do not see the same level of enthusiasm from many of my friends who ran off to 121. Some yes! Some are absolutely over the moon to be flying 121, but others seem more resigned to "this is the absolute best I can do pay and schedule wise, so the actual job doesn't matter to me."

99% of that macho BS and not reality. “If they do that I’d just tell them to shove it and go home”. No you wouldn’t, you’d do the trip. I’d hate for people to make life decisions based of these kind of “war stories”. Are you just a number, yes, but you can really be as involved as you want to be.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

To be honest? I get it. Personally, I got a lot of satisfaction from actually being involved in the operation in more ways than just flying. The money always looked nice, but I don't know, some people don't want to be "just a number." In 121 your entire professional trajectory is reduced to a single number - your seniority.

For those who want to go that route, more power to them - but I absolutely understand not liking that idea, and not feeling you'd fit-in in that sort of culture. My buddies who are airline guys now spend 90% of their time complaining about the other airline pilots it seems, then complaining about management, the schedule, etc. It's "tres cool" to not "like the job," it's very "cool" to not like the try-hards who enjoy learning or enjoy a challenge. It's "cool" to be the guy who throws up obstacles and says "no" etc - like culturally that's a thing, but this is more. And I'm not talking about safety stuff - I've heard stories now... more than a few, of things like refusing to do a trip because of the catering, and many many stories about strategic sick calls and schedule chicanery to avoid going to work.

And, I get it that's what the contract is for, etc. Even the catering: "hey our contract says we get catering X, getting catering Y is BS" - and I even agree! Ground that thing! I understand. MMMTO is a real thing. But I can completely understand looking at that and thinking, "I don't know if I would fit in in that culture" because I like saying solving problems when I can safely do it and up until my very last flight I really enjoyed flying.

I never flew 121, so I'll have to defer to the judgment of those who did both - but I still hear an awful lot of discontent from those pilots too. The only aspect that seems demonstrably "better" is the money, which I can understand, but I can completely understand looking at that money and thinking, "you know, what I do isn't so bad and it may not be worth it to go fly for the airlines." I was proud of the work I did, and excited about the job! Even when it sucked. I do not see the same level of enthusiasm from many of my friends who ran off to 121. Some yes! Some are absolutely over the moon to be flying 121, but others seem more resigned to "this is the absolute best I can do pay and schedule wise, so the actual job doesn't matter to me."

I've done 91, 135, and 121 and prefer 121 by a mile, but to each their own. @jrh asked for help for a specific problem, and people chiming in about 121 doesn't really help him. There are some people here who have carved out nice careers flying 91 who can contribute, I'm sure.

 

[jrh]

No, your problem, at least for the time being, is finding the right job that will help you sustain your lifestyle AND allow you to continue building your “multi-million dollar” nest egg!!

And herein lies the rub…..

I already have it, actually. The job opportunities I'm thinking about are not going to make or break my life.

I'm not bragging or claiming to be a financial genius. Personal finance is a marathon, not a sprint. I've just been making consistently decent decisions for the past twenty years. Was fortunate to come out of college without student debt. Always lived below my means. Did ok on a few real estate purchases. Prioritized saving in retirement accounts. Married a nurse and waited until we were older to have kids. I never made over $100k until a couple years ago.

Compound interest is a helluva drug.

 

[SteveC]

I already have it, actually. The job opportunities I'm thinking about are not going to make or break my life.

I'm not bragging or claiming to be a financial genius. Personal finance is a marathon, not a sprint. I've just been making consistently decent decisions for the past twenty years. Was fortunate to come out of college without student debt. Always lived below my means. Did ok on a few real estate purchases. Prioritized saving in retirement accounts. Married a nurse and waited until we were older to have kids. I never made over $100k until a couple years ago.

Compound interest is a helluva drug.

Perfect.

I retired a little over a year ago. Never made more than something like 150’ish in a year. In fact I don’t think I was over $100K more than a half dozen times. Not sure what our total net worth is, but it’s [as many millions] as I think we’ll need to do all the things we want to do… I’m happy.

Much more importantly, I enjoyed the journey.

 

[jrh]

To be honest? I get it. Personally, I got a lot of satisfaction from actually being involved in the operation in more ways than just flying. The money always looked nice, but I don't know, some people don't want to be "just a number." In 121 your entire professional trajectory is reduced to a single number - your seniority.

For those who want to go that route, more power to them - but I absolutely understand not liking that idea, and not feeling you'd fit-in in that sort of culture. My buddies who are airline guys now spend 90% of their time complaining about the other airline pilots it seems, then complaining about management, the schedule, etc. It's "tres cool" to not "like the job," it's very "cool" to not like the try-hards who enjoy learning or enjoy a challenge. It's "cool" to be the guy who throws up obstacles and says "no" etc - like culturally that's a thing, but this is more. And I'm not talking about safety stuff - I've heard stories now... more than a few, of things like refusing to do a trip because of the catering, and many many stories about strategic sick calls and schedule chicanery to avoid going to work.

And, I get it that's what the contract is for, etc. Even the catering: "hey our contract says we get catering X, getting catering Y is BS" - and I even agree! Ground that thing! I understand. MMMTO is a real thing. But I can completely understand looking at that and thinking, "I don't know if I would fit in in that culture" because I like saying solving problems when I can safely do it and up until my very last flight I really enjoyed flying.

I never flew 121, so I'll have to defer to the judgment of those who did both - but I still hear an awful lot of discontent from those pilots too. The only aspect that seems demonstrably "better" is the money, which I can understand, but I can completely understand looking at that money and thinking, "you know, what I do isn't so bad and it may not be worth it to go fly for the airlines." I was proud of the work I did, and excited about the job! Even when it sucked. I do not see the same level of enthusiasm from many of my friends who ran off to 121. Some yes! Some are absolutely over the moon to be flying 121, but others seem more resigned to "this is the absolute best I can do pay and schedule wise, so the actual job doesn't matter to me."

Although I can relate to everything you said, that's actually not my situation at all.

I essentially left professional flying in 2012 with 3800 hours because I considered the industry to be kind of messed up on multiple levels, between the seniority system, lack of stability, predictability, low pay for years and years, and so on. I realized it wasn't going to provide what I wanted out of life. So I quit.

I got into aircraft sales work, bought a house, got married, and settled in to a great life... coincidentally, a seven hour drive from literally any major airline hub.

When the "pilot shortage" hit and pay/schedules started noticeably improving, I decided I would give flying a shot again at a local operation in 2016.

At this point I'm so settled in life, I have nearly zero interest in moving and definitely have zero interest in commuting.

Maybe I'd be more open to 121 in ten or fifteen years when my kids are older as a "retirement gig" of sorts.

 

[ppragman]

Although I can relate to everything you said, that's actually not my situation at all.

I essentially left professional flying in 2012 with 3800 hours because I considered the industry to be kind of messed up on multiple levels, between the seniority system, lack of stability, predictability, low pay for years and years, and so on. I realized it wasn't going to provide what I wanted out of life. So I quit.

I got into aircraft sales work, bought a house, got married, and settled in to a great life... coincidentally, a seven hour drive from literally any major airline hub.

When the "pilot shortage" hit and pay/schedules started noticeably improving, I decided I would give flying a shot again at a local operation in 2016.

At this point I'm so settled in life, I have nearly zero interest in moving and definitely have zero interest in commuting.

Maybe I'd be more open to 121 in ten or fifteen years when my kids are older as a "retirement gig" of sorts.

Respect.

 

[PGT]

Let me shift gears a bit.

Here's a thought exercise.

What are some creative arrangements that would make a lack of hard days off, or lack of overall stability, or lack of amazing airplane, worth it? What have you seen other flight departments doing to make up for the crappy elements?

I know one part 91 that has hard days off, it's difficult to manage and, from what I've seen, not the norm.

After spending some time in 91 I'm not sure I'd ever recommend it. Sure being home most nights is nice for a decent paycheck but the downsides just aren't worth it. Most don't have a set schedule and you're one accidental comment away from getting sacked at all times, doesn't matter if you've been there 2 or 20 years. I've also seen many pilots reluctant to speak up due to threat of getting fired.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Some people here are acting like corporate jobs universally suck, and I don't buy it. I did sales work for four years and if there's one thing that taught me, everything can be sold at the right price. It's simply a matter of finding the right buyer, seller, and price. That's why I titled the thread "compensation negotiation." Saying it's impossible, it sucks, go to the airlines, is not a negotiation.

One thing that sales teaches you - the first side to name a number generally loses. Once you say what you want, you aren't getting a better offer until you negotiate with someone else for a new gig. Doesn't matter if it is days off/money/free dry cleaning. You are far better off getting an offer first and negotiating from there, which is why no one ever wants to give you a firm offer until they are convinced you'll take it.

Not having to play that game of changing jobs (or looking like I might) every two years is why I'm looking to get out of Corporate America. (You can still get paid pretty well and not work too much playing the game though).

 

[KLB]

Let me shift gears a bit.

Here's a thought exercise.

What are some creative arrangements that would make a lack of hard days off, or lack of overall stability, or lack of amazing airplane, worth it? What have you seen other flight departments doing to make up for the crappy elements?

Limit the total number of days worked in a given period? Give a longer call-out period? Give some sort of benefit unique to the operation, like free widgets from a widget-making company? Throw a stupid amount of money into the salary? Let the pilot's friends and family ride on the jet? Give a ton of vacation time scheduled in bigger chunks? Massive retention bonuses?

Some people here are acting like corporate jobs universally suck, and I don't buy it. I did sales work for four years and if there's one thing that taught me, everything can be sold at the right price. It's simply a matter of finding the right buyer, seller, and price. That's why I titled the thread "compensation negotiation." Saying it's impossible, it sucks, go to the airlines, is not a negotiation.

I do not believe that harf days off is too difficult of an ask honestly. Every flight department should have a decent lost of contract pilots that they find trustworthy enough to fill in for the absence of one their crewmembers. What if you get sick before a trip? Do you have duty and rest rules in place? And if so, do you have contractors in place to help augment?

Although I am a worker bee types, my clients have given me any time off that I have requested. But I do give them plenty of heads-up with my request though. I also have regular contractors that I use that know my clients and the operation.