Compensation negotiation

[jrh]

I'm looking at some opportunities in local Part 91 flight departments flying midsize business jets. These positions are seeking experienced captains, preferably local, with 4000+ hours total time, so they are definitely not entry-level. I have no idea how many qualified applicants they are getting, although I don't think the number is very high.

Compensation is negotiable and pretty much anything is on the table as far as salary, schedule, benefits, etc.

Pay is important to me, but I'm more interested in the overall package deal of having a sustainable schedule long term, health, disability, and retirement benefits, etc.

Any advice on how to handle these negotiations? If I get a job offer, I'm not even sure if they will make the first move by offering me a proposed compensation package or expect me to make the first move by asking me what it would take to get me to work there.

 

[milleR]

Be honest and upfront with what you need for you and your family, and make sure to get everything in writing. Are they hiring a person or a pilot?

 

[Richman]

Be honest and upfront with what you need for you and your family, and make sure to get everything in writing. Are they hiring a person or a pilot?

Scratch that. Be honest and upfront with what you WANT for you and your family.

What you need is your bottom line. Never negotiate against yourself. Make them say no.

And yes, get everything in writing.

 

[milleR]

Scratch that. Be honest and upfront with what you WANT for you and your family.

What you need is your bottom line. Never negotiate against yourself. Make them say no.

And yes, get everything in writing.

heh, I deal with people that "want" the world every day, I respect the people that are honest about what they need.

 

[jrh]

Scratch that. Be honest and upfront with what you WANT for you and your family.

What you need is your bottom line. Never negotiate against yourself. Make them say no.

And yes, get everything in writing.

Some of this want/need debate versus what's even possible has me scratching my head still.

One opportunity is a flight department that straight up says they aren't able to give hard days off. On the surface, that's a deal breaker. But in talking to them further, they have two full time captains for one airplane, plus a budget for contractors, and most trips are scheduled weeks in advance. It seems like there ought to be a path forward to work with that, but I'm not sure what terms to set or how to convert terms to monetary values.

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Some of this want/need debate versus what's even possible has me scratching my head still.

One opportunity is a flight department that straight up says they aren't able to give hard days off. On the surface, that's a deal breaker. But in talking to them further, they have two full time captains for one airplane, plus a budget for contractors, and most trips are scheduled weeks in advance. It seems like there ought to be a path forward to work with that, but I'm not sure what terms to set or how to convert terms to monetary values.

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

The concept of no days off should be dead and buried at this point. Also, things like doing mandatory office work, cleaning the airplane, 50% 401k matches to 6%, crappy healthcare, etc. I would guess that there aren't many people in your area as qualified as you looking for this type of position, so you should prioritize what you want and try to get it all. For once in our careers, you actually have some leverage. Good luck.

 

[Richman]

Some of this want/need debate versus what's even possible has me scratching my head still.

One opportunity is a flight department that straight up says they aren't able to give hard days off. On the surface, that's a deal breaker. But in talking to them further, they have two full time captains for one airplane, plus a budget for contractors, and most trips are scheduled weeks in advance. It seems like there ought to be a path forward to work with that, but I'm not sure what terms to set or how to convert terms to monetary values.

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

If a hard day off is a deal breaker, you need to let them know that and let them counter. If it really is a hard no for them, then it's time to thank them for their time, and seek other opportunities. Be sure to let them know why.

Don't count on the other pilots working to make your deal acceptable. At some point, if they get jammed up, you'll be in a fly-or-quit scenario, and you don't want to be in that position. If circumstances are such that you have to set it up where you absolutely cannot fly when they call you, that's going to be a problem unless they agree to it in advance.

If you need absolute hard days off, go 121.

 

[knot4u]

Some of this want/need debate versus what's even possible has me scratching my head still.

One opportunity is a flight department that straight up says they aren't able to give hard days off. On the surface, that's a deal breaker. But in talking to them further, they have two full time captains for one airplane, plus a budget for contractors, and most trips are scheduled weeks in advance. It seems like there ought to be a path forward to work with that, but I'm not sure what terms to set or how to convert terms to monetary values.

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

That sounds like they're saying you're going to be on call 24/7 in fancier words. You'd be the low man on the totem pole. Midsize is ambiguous, it might be a Hawker or it might be a Challenger 350. What does the operation look like, is it a T-hangar and an office in an airport adjacent strip mall or actual offices that are in the hangar the airplane lives in? Who takes care of the airplanes, where is the D.O.M.?

 

[T/O w/FSII]

Some of this want/need debate versus what's even possible has me scratching my head still.

One opportunity is a flight department that straight up says they aren't able to give hard days off. On the surface, that's a deal breaker. But in talking to them further, they have two full time captains for one airplane, plus a budget for contractors, and most trips are scheduled weeks in advance. It seems like there ought to be a path forward to work with that, but I'm not sure what terms to set or how to convert terms to monetary values.

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

Bro. Run.

This is the standard for now, and for forever. For nearly every 91/135 job on the planet.

Don’t even entertain it.

Signed - someone who just left for a major after making 300k flying all large cabin who had 5 jobs in the last 10 years, they are all the same. Every. Single. One. Plagued by the same flu.

 

[SteveC]

If a hard day off is a deal breaker, you need to let them know that and let them counter. If it really is a hard no for them, then it's time to thank them for their time, and seek other opportunities. Be sure to let them know why.

Don't count on the other pilots working to make your deal acceptable. At some point, if they get jammed up, you'll be in a fly-or-quit scenario, and you don't want to be in that position. If circumstances are such that you have to set it up where you absolutely cannot fly when they call you, that's going to be a problem unless they agree to it in advance.

If you need absolute hard days off, go 121.

I agree with everything except the last sentence.

 

[knot4u]

I agree with everything except the last sentence.

In 91/135 it's all about finding a sweet spot and that just depends on not being disingenuous with the people you meet along the way. You know when someone serves you a crap sandwich with a smile, you don't have to eat it. If that poop waiter found you others will come along, you can say no thanks to all of them as well. When someone brings a PB&J and a glass of milk you might want to have a seat. @SteveC recently retired after flying Lears for years. It can happen, it's not common, but someone has to fly the jets the purple haired protesters are screaming about.

 

[jrh]

Bro. Run.

This is the standard for now, and for forever. For nearly every 91/135 job on the planet.

Don’t even entertain it.

Signed - someone who just left for a major after making 300k flying all large cabin who had 5 jobs in the last 10 years, they are all the same. Every. Single. One. Plagued by the same flu.

I'm surprised it took this long before someone jumped in telling me to run to the airlines. I thought it would be closer to Post #2 or #3.

Sorry you had a rough ten years.

I've had a happy career away from airlines. Due to various factors, I don't see myself going to an airline anytime soon.

I'd like to negotiate myself into a good position in corporate aviation. Maybe it will work at this place, maybe it won't.

 

[jrh]

That sounds like they're saying you're going to be on call 24/7 in fancier words. You'd be the low man on the totem pole. Midsize is ambiguous, it might be a Hawker or it might be a Challenger 350. What does the operation look like, is it a T-hangar and an office in an airport adjacent strip mall or actual offices that are in the hangar the airplane lives in? Who takes care of the airplanes, where is the D.O.M.?

You hit the nail on the head with fancier words. But they know there is a pilot shortage and I think they're going to realize something has to sweeten the deal.

I've done my due diligence and been satisfied with the other details you're talking about.

During a meeting with this operation, I had a discussion with their top dog and said the key to happiness for everyone involved is setting and meeting expectations. He agreed. I'm not sure what kind of expectations he's been setting with the client of the flight department and that might need to change in order to get crew.

 

[knot4u]

You hit the nail on the head with fancier words. But they know there is a pilot shortage and I think they're going to realize something has to sweeten the deal.

I've done my due diligence and been satisfied with the other details you're talking about.

During a meeting with this operation, I had a discussion with their top dog and said the key to happiness for everyone involved is setting and meeting expectations. He agreed. I'm not sure what kind of expectations he's been setting with the client of the flight department and that might need to change in order to get crew.

Good luck. My advice if you choose to move forward would be to not sign a contract for your training. I've been through that and although it worked out for me it would suck if it didn't. Do they want you to fly their airplane? If they don't show them your heels.

 

[tlove482]

Some of this want/need debate versus what's even possible has me scratching my head still.

One opportunity is a flight department that straight up says they aren't able to give hard days off. On the surface, that's a deal breaker. But in talking to them further, they have two full time captains for one airplane, plus a budget for contractors, and most trips are scheduled weeks in advance. It seems like there ought to be a path forward to work with that, but I'm not sure what terms to set or how to convert terms to monetary values.

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

Your best bet is if you can talk to the current pilots to get a feel for what it's really like. I'm at a part 91 place currently. While we don't have a set schedule or hard days off, each pilot flies 5-8 days a month. Trips are scheduled at least a week out so I wouldn't call it 24/7 on call. It's the most time I've ever had off and I love it.

 

[///AMG]

Bro. Run.

This is the standard for now, and for forever. For nearly every 91/135 job on the planet.

Don’t even entertain it.

Signed - someone who just left for a major after making 300k flying all large cabin who had 5 jobs in the last 10 years, they are all the same. Every. Single. One. Plagued by the same flu.

Didn't know you made this career change. Congrats, I think? OP I'd say this probably speaks volumes towards your question.

 

[dustoff17]

…..

For example, one could offer to be available all the time, with the caveat that any trips scheduled with less than say, a week's notice are at the discretion of the pilot. Part of me says this arrangement still isn't as good as hard days off scheduled months in advance, but part of me says this could be great...no trips scheduled for a week and you could literally go on vacation for a week. So is it better to ask for this arrangement with more or less pay to go along with it? And would the department reject this idea at any price because they don't want to be constrained to always planning trips at least a week in advance?

Lots of similar debates in my head about what to ask for and what the pros/cons would be.

As for getting everything in writing, yes, absolutely.

Seems to me that by posting and asking your question here, you have already decided how you want to deal with this company.

The highlighted above is a fantasy! While there are a few Part 91 operations that are scheduled a week in advance, they are extremely rare. How exactly are you going to tell an owner that he can’t use his multi-million dollar jet because you‘ve decided that you’re not going to fly on a specific day for lack of 7 notice? This isn’t real world….!

What you seem to want is a job with a great airplane, with great pay and benefits that allows you to take off as much time as you want, WHEN you want it! Also, one where cursory duties are non-existent. Not stating that you won’t find it because unicorns are out there (some cost you more in the long run that one would expect, so beware!).

Most companies will ask what you want for compensation package; they want you to speak first because if you low-ball, they’ll accept. I concur with previous posts about stating you wants. You can always negotiate and accept or walk away. Also, settle somewhere between your wants and your needs!

 

[Skåning]

What you seem to want is a job with a great airplane, with great pay and benefits that allows you to take off as much time as you want, WHEN you want it! Also, one where cursory duties are non-existent. Not stating that you won’t find it because unicorns are out there

Yeah they’re out there, major airline gigs!

 

[Richman]

Seems to me that by posting and asking your question here, you have already decided how you want to deal with this company.

The highlighted above is a fantasy! While there are a few Part 91 operations that are scheduled a week in advance, they are extremely rare. How exactly are you going to tell an owner that he can’t use his multi-million dollar jet because you‘ve decided that you’re not going to fly on a specific day for lack of 7 notice? This isn’t real world….!

What you seem to want is a job with a great airplane, with great pay and benefits that allows you to take off as much time as you want, WHEN you want it! Also, one where cursory duties are non-existent. Not stating that you won’t find it because unicorns are out there (some cost you more in the long run that one would expect, so beware!).

Most companies will ask what you want for compensation package; they want you to speak first because if you low-ball, they’ll accept. I concur with previous posts about stating you wants. You can always negotiate and accept or walk away. Also, settle somewhere between your wants and your needs!

There are sweet corporate jobs out there, but for the most part, they are kept hush, hush, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. The really good ones are pretty much handed down from person to person. A lot of jobs where there is an actual application process, it's just for show, because some corporate policy requires it, but their decision has already been made.

What you don't want is to get a nice corporate gig and have the company wind up on the front page. The auto companies had flight departments going back 70-80 years, but they got caught...well, that's not even the right term. A disdainful public eye turned on them as they were conducting business as they always had, and got caught up in a nasty tornado of public opinion fueled by the nascent phenomenon of the SM mob.

Net result was flight departments got axed, everyone got fired, and 30 year pilots were unceremoniously let go with a boot in the ass.

 

[arkflyr]

What you don't want is to get a nice corporate gig and have the company wind up on the front page. The auto companies had flight departments going back 70-80 years, but they got caught...well, that's not even the right term. A disdainful public eye turned on them as they were conducting business as they always had, and got caught up in a nasty tornado of public opinion fueled by the nascent phenomenon of the SM mob.

What is amazing about all of that is AIG which was the largest US government bailout in history got to keep their flight department, it didn't even get a dent during all of that. It took another 6 years and the company getting turned around to attract Carl Icahn's attention. I think it only took him a year to take a blowtorch and machete to the place and get rid of the flight department.

AIG was a founding member of NBAA and their flight department at least got a decent severance, but I am still somewhat amazed after all the hate for the auto companies that AIG was able to fly under the radar. Especially after the bonus scandal the following year.