Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[JustinS]

Patience? In a seniority industry? Every day missed is one less days seniority. Cold hard fact. So it’s a harsh advice to say patience. This isn’t some young buck with zits on the face. This is a mid 40s woman who has 20yrs left to mandatory retirement.

You have to have patience while also working one day at a time to better position yourself. You have to be impatient in working your tail off and doing everything you can to be hungry and get ahead, but you must be patient with the process and focus on your day to day and not get too caught up in the big picture. Otherwise what does impatience about the big picture accomplish besides complaining you’re not where you want to be while doing everything you can to try and move forward? Many of us have experienced patience, and even SharkHeart admits there are people worse off in terms of patience that has been required in their careers.

Sometimes patience is knowing that somedays going flying logging the TPIC having a nice dinner at the hotel and going to sleep for 8 hours is what that day will entail. Not everyday is the most exciting day of preparing yourself for that fateful interview invite. Although arguably going flying and having a nice meal and a rest at a hotel is kind of a relaxing thing in and of itself.

 

[JustinS]

@derg you laugh, but it’s a longgggg career if you don’t enjoy the little things even on the toughest of days.

 

[derg]

Patience because the hiring “spree” is over and has rationalized to a low boil. No one is rushing anywhere at the moment and there are only a small handful of airlines still hiring. CC’s “get on somewhere, NAO” is poor advice as the majors that are still hiring want to see some relatively significant time between leaving the business and re-entering it. Period. End o’ story.

However, if the regionals are rough (even though junior narrowbody flying at the majors isn’t a whole lot different) and she wants to get out of the regional business. A company like ATI where many of us have connections and can provide a pathway is one of the few options available at this point.

A lateral move? Career stagnation.
A backwards move? Career stagnation
An upward move? Maybe solves some of the issues with the pace of the schedule, but appears logical to a pilot selection team.

Personally, I’d stay at SkyWeezy to build a more stable work history. If that’s not possible, ATI or some ACMI carrier would be the next best solution.

The dynamics of the market HAVE changed almost 180 degrees from this time last year and a new environment requires updated strategies. I’m trying to use what I know to nudge some of you toward what would look attractive on paper because, at the end of the day, right or wrong, if it doesn’t look good on paper in terms of career path and decision-making, are several thousands of candidates applications that do.

 

[derg]

@derg you laugh, but it’s a longgggg career if you don’t enjoy the little things even on the toughest of days.

Just had a similar discussion with my crew tonight.

I’m serving as LCP with a new captain candidate, civilian, Lone Star, Eagle, then SouthernJets. The other captain was a civilian as well, Eagle then Northwest. The FO was Pinnacle.

The overarching story was that “these are the good old days”. Even the former days at the regionals, 10 minute turns, broken planes, crappy hotels and the pace of the operation are looked back upon as good memories now. But we all seemed to agree that keeping your nose pointed forward, accepting joy where it is and not carrying the burden of the job onto the next day kept us all happy, upbeat and determined to capture opportunity. None of us thought we’d be where we are today, but we’re here because even though it felt like two steps forward, one step back, as long as you kept moving you were going to move forward.

Granted, I didn’t spent a lot of time at the regionals because I had an awesome mentor that when he said “jump” said “how high” and did a lot of things I didn’t think I’d ever do. (I still remember telling Kristie that I’d NEVER move to a state like Wisconsin and two months later, here I was with a job based in Wisconsin, or how I’d never want to go to SouthernJets because it didn’t seem like a place I wanted to be, but here somewhat the face of the company for the last few years).

Sometimes you have to make bold decisions in spite of yourself.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This advice sort of contradicts the advice many have given as SharkHeart has tried to only fixate only on career destinations with specific bases limiting opportunities towards advancement. I know a few pilots who went to ATI in their airline journey. Their experience definitely helped them accelerate their career forward.

Spirit Airlines, it turns out, was the best thing that could have possibly happened to me in 2018, and a fine place to ride out 2020 (WARN’d or otherwise we were adults about the situation, unlike some…”other” places, shall we say), and it was literally nowhere on my career bingo card either. Washing off the RJ funk is a whole thing, though you have to get a certain amount of RJ funk before you’re allowed to wash it off, too, usually.

I also did not think I’d ever darken the doors of Red Square again (to say that I was somewhat berated into it is not an understatement…I have good friends, it turns out and we’ll set some personal reasons aside). In hindsight I’m glad that I did because points at the dog’s breakfast Ted Christie & Bendo are making. Flying a wide body jet my first year has been pure bonus territory; I would have been happy to commute to RES on the 717 in Detroit and still would be, yes, with 12 whole X-days for that category, because, well, that’s the job, and this is what we do.

 

[ppragman]

But the current state is untenable. It's uniquely unhealthy, and I have no time to live my non-work life.

This is the sacrifice aviation demands of it's people. You know most of us die right after retirement right? The price to "touch the face of god" is probably cancer and cardiovascular issues from layover food. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying this is kind of how things presently work.

Also... what @FlyChicaga said about identity is spot on, you should probably follow that particular thread a bit more. Still, (and you got mad when I said it before), you should be really excited to be where you're at. You're a captain at SKYW, I would practically kill to get flying back in my life. Enjoy it while it lasts, because one day you're going to wake up and not be able to do it anymore and how do you want to have spent this time? Does that help you find a job? Nope. But is it still important? Yup.

If you can't do that (or even can't go do that at SKYW), go find a job that gives your life meaning somewhere else. There are a lot of cool things out there, but you may have to move. Still, these are all choices that *you* can make with your mates. You have some agency in this.

Regardless, I did not realize this until I was out of the cockpit and halfway through grad school. It doesn't matter the industry or the job, they're all games.

Finding a job and "moving up" (whatever the hell that really means to you) is a game. So, play the game. They want job fair attendance? Go to job fairs. They want a bachelors? Go to school. You get a chance to win the game, but you have to move somewhere that's not perfect? You move. They want a couple more years at SKYW? Sit tight and wait while you do the other stuff. You get the picture. Still, this - like many many crappy situations we have to deal with - is a game, how badly do you want to win it?

Still, you should probably try to enjoy the game while you're playing it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This is the sacrifice aviation demands of it's people. You know most of us die right after retirement right? The price to "touch the face of god" is probably cancer and cardiovascular issues from layover food. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying this is kind of how things presently work.

Also... what @FlyChicaga said about identity is spot on, you should probably follow that particular thread a bit more. Still, (and you got mad when I said it before), you should be really excited to be where you're at. You're a captain at SKYW, I would practically kill to get flying back in my life. Enjoy it while it lasts, because one day you're going to wake up and not be able to do it anymore and how do you want to have spent this time? Does that help you find a job? Nope. But is it still important? Yup.

If you can't do that (or even can't go do that at SKYW), go find a job that gives your life meaning somewhere else. There are a lot of cool things out there, but you may have to move. Still, these are all choices that *you* can make with your mates. You have some agency in this.

Regardless, I did not realize this until I was out of the cockpit and halfway through grad school. It doesn't matter the industry or the job, they're all games.

Finding a job and "moving up" (whatever the hell that really means to you) is a game. So, play the game. They want job fair attendance? Go to job fairs. They want a bachelors? Go to school. You get a chance to win the game, but you have to move somewhere that's not perfect? You move. They want a couple more years at SKYW? Sit tight and wait while you do the other stuff. You get the picture. Still, this - like many many crappy situations we have to deal with - is a game, how badly do you want to win it?

Still, you should probably try to enjoy the game while you're playing it.

Yeah. Again, the average age of a retiree is "not great," and the size of the sick list was originally a bit surprising but then I thought about it more and, well, it makes sense. Unfortunately.

Somewhere between being a career-focused monomaniacal sociopath and being a complete knob who doesn't do anything outside of the flight deck is the happy medium required for anything more than a mildly 'successful' aviation career. I didn't like using my precious leave to go to job fairs either, but it turns out that the party was a lot more fun than any application of grease. Multiple occasions arose where I wondered why I was paying for a graduate education (to say nothing of doing the work, which cut into the layover exploration time, which is a big component of why I like this job, even in OMA or FWA or SBN).

Whatever. I'm getting cheese fries.

 

[Kingairer]

Amazing how much the hiring across the industry has changed in 2 weeks

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Just had a similar discussion with my crew tonight.

I’m serving as LCP with a new captain candidate, civilian, Lone Star, Eagle, then SouthernJets. The other captain was a civilian as well, Eagle then Northwest. The FO was Pinnacle.

The overarching story was that “these are the good old days”. Even the former days at the regionals, 10 minute turns, broken planes, crappy hotels and the pace of the operation are looked back upon as good memories now. But we all seemed to agree that keeping your nose pointed forward, accepting joy where it is and not carrying the burden of the job onto the next day kept us all happy, upbeat and determined to capture opportunity. None of us thought we’d be where we are today, but we’re here because even though it felt like two steps forward, one step back, as long as you kept moving you were going to move forward.

Granted, I didn’t spent a lot of time at the regionals because I had an awesome mentor that when he said “jump” said “how high” and did a lot of things I didn’t think I’d ever do. (I still remember telling Kristie that I’d NEVER move to a state like Wisconsin and two months later, here I was with a job based in Wisconsin, or how I’d never want to go to SouthernJets because it didn’t seem like a place I wanted to be, but here somewhat the face of the company for the last few years).

Sometimes you have to make bold decisions in spite of yourself.

Yeah but sometimes things happen that are way outside of your control. Like a door popping off an aircraft you flew two weeks prior. Creating like the 15th "once a career" black swan event you've gotten to experience firsthand. Your employer stops hiring. You're stuck at the bottom of the seniority list. Downgrades are threatened multiple times. All the while a merger is looming, that if combined with a downgrade could result in career stagnation of epic proportions.

Sometimes it's OK to say that this is just another job, bad things happen to really good people and maybe life would have been better if you'd done something different with your life.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yeah but sometimes things happen that are way outside of your control. Like a door popping off an aircraft you flew two weeks prior. Creating like the 15th "once a career" black swan event you've gotten to experience firsthand. Your employer stops hiring. You're stuck at the bottom of the seniority list. Downgrades are threatened multiple times. All the while a merger is looming, that if combined with a downgrade could result in career stagnation of epic proportions.

Sometimes it's OK to say that this is just another job, bad things happen to really good people and maybe life would have been better if you'd done something different with your life.

The "Will Smith, Welcome to Earth" award.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

The "Will Smith, Welcome to Earth" award.

I've got an entire room full of them dude.

 

[BobDDuck]

Yeah but sometimes things happen that are way outside of your control. Like a door popping off an aircraft you flew two weeks prior. Creating like the 15th "once a career" black swan event you've gotten to experience firsthand. Your employer stops hiring. You're stuck at the bottom of the seniority list. Downgrades are threatened multiple times. All the while a merger is looming, that if combined with a downgrade could result in career stagnation of epic proportions.

Sometimes it's OK to say that this is just another job, bad things happen to really good people and maybe life would have been better if you'd done something different with your life.

While I kind of agree with your second point (this is very much just a job... a potentially very good one, but still just a job), I don't agree with your first point. A manufacturer cutting deliveries in half is not a black swan event. Movement suddenly slowing and the rumor of downgrades is not a black swan event. Reserves going from barely flying to flying right up to (but not over) mmg every month is not a black swan event. That's the aviation industry. Just how it it. I can't remember when you started working flying airplanes, but if it was before 9-11 I'll give you two events. That, and covid. Everything else has been the normal up and down of the industry.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

While I kind of agree with your second point (this is very much just a job... a potentially very good one, but still just a job), I don't agree with your first point. A manufacturer cutting deliveries in half is not a black swan event. Movement suddenly slowing and the rumor of downgrades is not a black swan event. Reserves going from barely flying to flying right up to (but not over) mmg every month is not a black swan event. That's the aviation industry. Just how it it. I can't remember when you started working flying airplanes, but if it was before 9-11 I'll give you two events. That, and covid. Everything else has been the normal up and down of the industry.

Weird flex but OK

 

[word302]

I told you 10 or so pages ago, it’s ok to leave. I did it. I survived. I actually thrived. I was able to raise my daughters for several years alone as a single dad. I play hockey at least twice a week. Sometimes four times a week. I also work two jobs, not just one. Opportunities to play open up when you aren’t in a hotel.

As I said before, I do not know you. But I do know pilots. One problem with pilots, and with cops (since I am both), is that we let our careers define our identity. It’s not just cops or pilots, but it’s easy to let it happen in these two professions. “What do you do?” “I’m a pilot.” Or, “I’m a cop.” We wear it as a badge of honor. When someone says “what do you do,” nobody answers, “I’m a dad, I play hockey for fun, I love hiking, and dabble in video games.” The next question would be, “no, what do you do? For work?” Like it matters? Who cares??

Maybe you are afraid to leave, because you are afraid of losing your identity. If that is the case, you need to realize your identity is killing you.

Before you get defensive, take a breath and think about this. I say this as someone who has for most of my life let my work mold my identity. Once you realize this is a career and not a crusade, you will approach things with a much clearer mind.

I’d argue that a good portion of us don’t let the job define us.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

While I kind of agree with your second point (this is very much just a job... a potentially very good one, but still just a job), I don't agree with your first point. A manufacturer cutting deliveries in half is not a black swan event. Movement suddenly slowing and the rumor of downgrades is not a black swan event. Reserves going from barely flying to flying right up to (but not over) mmg every month is not a black swan event. That's the aviation industry. Just how it it. I can't remember when you started working flying airplanes, but if it was before 9-11 I'll give you two events. That, and covid. Everything else has been the normal up and down of the industry.

We also didn't 'really' do the response to Covid as a black swan event because money printer went brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

May we live in precedented times hereafter, he said with nervous laughter.

 

[JordanD]

I’d argue that a good portion of us don’t let the job define us.

I like this job, a lot. But if something happened and I couldn't do it anymore I have no doubt I'd be able to find happiness elsewhere in life. I think that's important for people to think about. At the end of the day, this pays the bills.

 

[Hiboglossi]

And shark, please don’t do ATI. Try to make your next airline jump your permanent home. In the meantime, that’s a horrendous schedule and I’m sorry you are living that. But don’t trade one suck for another suck.

With all due respect, this is bad advice. In general, it's always best to take the first opportunity to escape the regionals, since opportunities for forward career progress don't come along every day, or even every decade. But that's especially true now that the doors of pilot hiring have slammed shut (or at least nearly shut) at many of the legacies.

That call from your first choice of permanent home may not come for years if it comes at all; and if it never comes, whatever else you can say about ATI, it's a better permanent home than any regional. And when the legacies are hiring I suspect it's easier to get hired at them with a type rating that several of them operate than as yet another regional pilot desperate to escape.

 

[Hiboglossi]

We also didn't 'really' do the response to Covid as a black swan event because money printer went brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

May we live in precedented times hereafter, he said with nervous laughter.

The Pandemic may have been a black swan event in general, but for airline pilots in the USA it absolutely wasn't, unless you were at TSA, Compass, ExpressJet, Miami Air, or one of a few other airlines that went out of business before the bailouts were issued. If anything, the Pandemic ended up being a boon for many pilots' careers, since it lead to so many early retirements and then rapid career advancement for many in order to replace those retirees.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Amazing how much the hiring across the industry has changed in 2 weeks

I mean, the competitive minimums bottomed out circa 2022-2023 and it’s been steadily “y’all got any more of them captains?” after that.

 

[roundout]

Patience because the hiring “spree” is over and has rationalized to a low boil. No one is rushing anywhere at the moment and there are only a small handful of airlines still hiring. CC’s “get on somewhere, NAO” is poor advice as the majors that are still hiring want to see some relatively significant time between leaving the business and re-entering it. Period. End o’ story.

However, if the regionals are rough (even though junior narrowbody flying at the majors isn’t a whole lot different) and she wants to get out of the regional business. A company like ATI where many of us have connections and can provide a pathway is one of the few options available at this point.

A lateral move? Career stagnation.
A backwards move? Career stagnation
An upward move? Maybe solves some of the issues with the pace of the schedule, but appears logical to a pilot selection team.

Personally, I’d stay at SkyWeezy to build a more stable work history. If that’s not possible, ATI or some ACMI carrier would be the next best solution.

The dynamics of the market HAVE changed almost 180 degrees from this time last year and a new environment requires updated strategies. I’m trying to use what I know to nudge some of you toward what would look attractive on paper because, at the end of the day, right or wrong, if it doesn’t look good on paper in terms of career path and decision-making, are several thousands of candidates applications that do.

Feel like this is a foot stomp post