The New York Times gets the pilot "shortage" 80% right

[Soku39]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/17/o...passengers-but-where-are-the-pilots.html?_r=0

One of the more well reasoned articles I've read about the regionals and their self created plight to find pilots. I had a very large issue with the second half of this paragraph

"Citing the pilot shortage, two regional operators, Republic Airways andSeaPort Airlines, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in February. Other regional carriers have been unable to fulfill their obligations to their mainline partners, resulting in shake-ups; United Airlines, for example, recently transferred 40 jets from ExpressJet to CommutAir in the hopes the latter could better meet its needs."

Otherwise it would seem that the public is starting to figure out what the problem is.

 

[av8tr1]

I whole heartedly disagree that Seapot filed bankruptcy as a result of the pilot shortage. It was purely bad management. Bad management lead to a max exodus of pilots.

It's absolutely pure poppycock that Seapot is telling everyone thier woe is due to a lack of pilots.

When your HR manual specificly says pilots only get 1/2 thier earn PTO when they leave, regardless of termination or resignation, it's no wonder pilots don't stick around.

 

[killbilly]

Pretty good story.

If the airlines would at least charge what it costs to move the seat from A to B, would these problems exist at this level?

 

[Murdoughnut]

Pretty good story.

If the airlines would at least charge what it costs to move the seat from A to B, would these problems exist at this level?

If pilots wouldn't have accepted jobs making $23k a year with crappy work conditions, would these problems exist at this level?

The regional model needs to be taken off of life support.

 

[derg]

There are tons of people who want to fly airplanes that are licensed, but the idea of leaving a comfortable, reliable office job and diving into "the churn" of the regional business in hopes of one day hitting a major is unattractive for a growing number of people.

 

[killbilly]

If pilots wouldn't have accepted jobs making $23k a year with crappy work conditions, would these problems exist at this level?

The regional model needs to be taken off of life support.

I don't disagree. I've just never understood the pricing model relative to the costs. People far, far smarter than I am DO understand this, which is why I'm asking the question.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

There are tons of people who want to fly airplanes that are licensed, but the idea of leaving a comfortable, reliable office job and diving into "the churn" of the regional business in hopes of one day hitting a major is unattractive for a growing number of people.

You don't say...

Not that the office job is reliable or comfortable or anything like that.

 

[Roger Roger]

There are tons of people who want to fly airplanes that are licensed, but the idea of leaving a comfortable, reliable office job and diving into "the churn" of the regional business in hopes of one day hitting a major is unattractive for a growing number of people.

Amen. Although with the improvements some regionals have been making, coupled with the headaches of the desk job, there's a lot of days where the RJ to Des Moines looks good.

 

[Richman]

There are tons of people who want to fly airplanes that are licensed, but the idea of leaving a comfortable, reliable office job and diving into "the churn" of the regional business in hopes of one day hitting a major is unattractive for a growing number of people.

Amen. Although with the improvements some regionals have been making, coupled with the headaches of the desk job, there's a lot of days where the RJ to Des Moines looks good.

I futz with GA quite a bit, and I get to interface with "successful cubical/office types" here and there.

The RJ job to DSM job to them looks fine, until you start adding up all the ancillary bovine poo that goes with the job.

Work evenings, weekends, holidays?

Get those choice vacations in Feb?

Stay off the MJ and keep the booze under strict control?

Spend a good amount of your off duty time away from home in Chez Motel Six?

Time off subject to frequent, random events.

Having someone speak to you about your hat or haircut?

And that's just a sample....none of the cubical warriors would put up with any of that more than a week.

A lot of life is lived in the margins...those little slices of time you grab here and there...:dinner in the evenings, lunch with the missus, walks with kids in the park. All stuff that takes people in this business a extraordinary effort to do, but people in the everyday world take for granted.

The majors paid phat coin because that's what it took to park butts in the seats. That compensation is what drew people into the system...from the top, not pushed from the bottom.

Richman

 

[av8tr1]

I am one of those successful cubical/office types. I worked in IT as first a network/server admin, then programmer, then worked my way up to senior level management. Held CTO and other senior management titles at a few companies with a 6 figure salary.

Far too often I was working 14 hour days, working weekends and holidays, yes even the dress code was an issue.

Walked away and never looked back. Very happy to have made the switch even with the significant drop in pay. Money isn't everything and you have to find what makes you happy.

Although I have worked for a couple of dirt bag operators I still wouldn't change a thing (ok maybe one or two things, Seapot would be one)

And I say this laying on the couch at the Bethel AK airport pilot room. Not getting paid while I wait to finish unpaid training.

It isn't all roses on this side (from my point of view), you deal with people who screw you over left and right but I can confirm its like that on both sides of the fence.

But I'd rather be looking down from up there with low pay than down there looking up wishing I had taken the chance.

 

[Roger Roger]

I futz with GA quite a bit, and I get to interface with "successful cubical/office types" here and there.

The RJ job to DSM job to them looks fine, until you start adding up all the ancillary bovine poo that goes with the job.

Work evenings, weekends, holidays?

Get those choice vacations in Feb?

Stay off the MJ and keep the booze under strict control?

Spend a good amount of your off duty time away from home in Chez Motel Six?

Time off subject to frequent, random events.

Having someone speak to you about your hat or haircut?

And that's just a sample....none of the cubical warriors would put up with any of that more than a week.

A lot of life is lived in the margins...those little slices of time you grab here and there...:dinner in the evenings, lunch with the missus, walks with kids in the park. All stuff that takes people in this business a extraordinary effort to do, but people in the everyday world take for granted.

The majors paid phat coin because that's what it took to park butts in the seats. That compensation is what drew people into the system...from the top, not pushed from the bottom.

Richman

Oh I'm well aware of the ugly underside of airline flying, but compared to running an airline mx shop there's some definite upsides.

 

[mshunter]

This is a problem created by the major airlines whipsawing the regionals against each other, and regional pilots taking low wages, and in some cases, artificially low wages (a-la bonuses in lieu of pay). This summer is going to be bad, very bad. There will be more canceled flights than you can shake a stick at due to lack of staffing. They made their bed, now they get to lay in it. I can see by the end of summer at least two of the regionals, possibly three claiming BK for relief from contracts, and the majors that they fly for become debtors in possession.

 

[av8tr1]

This is a problem created by the major airlines whipsawing the regionals against each other, and regional pilots taking low wages, and in some cases, artificially low wages (a-la bonuses in lieu of pay). This summer is going to be bad, very bad. There will be more canceled flights than you can shake a stick at due to lack of staffing. They made their bed, now they get to lay in it. I can see by the end of summer at least two of the regionals, possibly three claiming BK for relief from contracts, and the majors that they fly for become debtors in possession.

You say that like its a bad thing. This is good for the pilots of the industry who will reap the benefits of higher pay and better quality of life.

I went through the same thing in the late 90s with the mellinium bug (AKA Y2K). Pay was poor before that but suddenly if you knew fortran or any mainframe languages suddenly you could demand any pay you wanted. And it continues to this day. If the same thing happens in aviation we are seeing the start of a beautiful thing.

 

[mshunter]

You say that like its a bad thing. This is good for the pilots of the industry who will reap the benefits of higher pay and better quality of life.

I went through the same thing in the late 90s with the mellinium bug (AKA Y2K). Pay was poor before that but suddenly if you knew fortran or any mainframe languages suddenly you could demand any pay you wanted. And it continues to this day. If the same thing happens in aviation we are seeing the start of a beautiful thing.

While I agree this will be good for the industry as a whole, there are still going to be a lot of guys who get royally screwed by it. I just hope I have a seat when the music stops.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I whole heartedly disagree that Seapot filed bankruptcy as a result of the pilot shortage. It was purely bad management. Bad management lead to a max exodus of pilots.

It's absolutely pure poppycock that Seapot is telling everyone thier woe is due to a lack of pilots.

When your HR manual specificly says pilots only get 1/2 thier earn PTO when they leave, regardless of termination or resignation, it's no wonder pilots don't stick around.

Wouldn't "fly" (ha) here in the People's Republic of California.

 

[av8tr1]

Wouldn't "fly" (ha) here in the People's Republic of California.

It's not legal anywhere and Seapot has been notified of a coming lawsuit and multipule complaints to the dept of labor.

Non-pilot employees btw get thier full PTO when they leave. How "F'ed up" is that. Says it right in the HR manual.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It's not legal anywhere and Seapot has been notified of a coming lawsuit and multipule complaints to the dept of labor.

Non-pilot employees btw get thier full PTO when they leave. How "F'ed up" is that. Says it right in the HR manual.

Sigh.

I mean, I've never understood why businesses even try this.

 

[Richman]

Sigh.

I mean, I've never understood why businesses even try this.

I've seen this from one end of the industry to the other...."discriminatory" employee rules, taking a HS diploma agent's word over that of the guy in charge of a $10 million airplane, BS "independent contractor" status clearly in opposition to IRS rules, etc, etc. All kinds of KRAP that no one would dare try with a salaried employee lest they be hauled infront of the local labor board, court, or the IRS.

Never understood it. People are just a bunch of pilot haters I guess. Makes them nuts.

Richman

 

[ScorpionStinger]

This thread sure took off huh?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Never understood it. People are just a bunch of people haters I guess. Makes them nuts.

Richman

FIFY. In every little human their lives a little fire, stoked and engorged by the sneaking suspicion that they're getting a raw deal, and that everyone who isn't them is living fat and easy. It's as regular as death, taxes, or angry internet posts.