Article: Are pilots flying beyond their limits?

[wheelsup]

To tie this into duty regulations, I think the focus should be on maximum duty times and minimum rest times, not how many hours are flown in such and such a period. Pilots should be allowed to fly as much as they want outside of their required rest periods. This puts the pilot in control of his productivity, therefore putting him in control of how much he earns.

I agree, a duty time of 16 hours w/ 8 hours flying would be more fatiguing than 12 hours of duty and 10.5 hours of flying.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Charlie, please don't "reign it in." You're on the right track, and your positions are the same as ALPA's and CAPA's, both of whom developed their positions using the analysis of countless engineers, PHDs, MDs, etc. Frankly, it amazes me that an experienced air line pilot would argue with these positions. A frozen ATP is less than worthless.

I have no intention of reigning anything in. Martin's correct in one point, though. More formulated study backing present positions would lend greater credibility to many of the points being made.

Ultimately, though, there's a point being missed I think I've failed to elucidate in past ramblings.

The point of a lot of the ideas I support don't necessarily equate to a direct solution to the specific scenario that caused the crash of Colgan 3407. They're intended to address the deeper cultural underpinnings of an industry.

I have for quite some time supported the notion that the minimum standards for the industry were lacking. Note the date stamp on the thread in my signature line. Not exactly something I wrote yesterday.

There's an old story I heard once again a Native American chieftain who had to negotiate land concessions to white settlers. He had the settler negotiator sit on a fallen tree with him. Then he asked him to move over a little, because he wanted a little more room. He did this a few times, until the other man came to the end of the log. When he objected because there was no room left to give, the chief said, "What do you think you are doing to us?"

The cultural shift away from policies that encourage pilots to make more realistic choices in terms of residence, commuting, and duty hours has been a long, slow slide to the bottom. If anything, Remember 3407 Project policy has been an attempt to stop the slide with a few key, core issues that will allow pilots to address a broad spectrum of issues. Strike the right keys, play the right chord, and you finally hear what everybody wants you to play.

To be honest, the Project was never intended to correct all the current wrongs in the industry as a whole anyways. It wasn't intended to be a huge step forward. It was intended to stop the slide and bring an end to continuous losing of ground. Establish a baseline, even a simple one, and we can think about moving forward from there with a more intelligent, comprehensive direction.

When we're all worried about getting 'pushed off the end of the log', who can really make the best decisions?

 

[Patrick]

Labor should not be a variable cost anymore than the price of fuel is. The idea that a company "has no control over their revenue" is absolutely asinine, and is the exact mentality that has caused so many managements to fail. Proper revenue management is exactly why profitable airlines like AirTran and Allegiant are making so much money right now. AirTran has managed to increase ancillary revenue ten fold in the past couple of years. Were it not for this revenue stream, the company would not be profitable today. On the other hand, if the company gave every employee industry-leading pay, benefits, and work rules, we would still be profitable. The key is revenue management, not squeezing your employees for money.

Glad someone understands this. Maybe more pilots should take general business courses during their training so that they can understand how the big picture works, at least a little bit?

 

[Xiph]

MPL is a completely separate issue. ALPA only supports MPL under very strict criteria which don't exist in today's industry. A complete revamping of training in this country would have to take place in order for ALPA to be on board with MPL.

Regarding mandating 1,500 hours and an ATP, you should visit ALPA's public page to read testimony from Captain Prater supporting the bill, and since you're a Teamster, you should also read public statements from CAPA which support the bill. With all of the profession's experts on one side of the debate, you should ask yourself why you're on the other.

Many airlines around the world operate safely with pilots who have less experience than ATP minimums. There are researchers out there who support the idea that you can exchange a certain amount of experience for training, aptitude, or a combination of both. So to say that all the profession's experts are on one side of the argument of whether one needs an ATP to be a safe pilot seems disingenuous.

As Polar742 said, there is still plenty of room for useful and productive debate on the subject (which would encompass primary training, training at the airlines, selection processes, etc.,), but few people seem interested in it.

Now there I have to disagree. When you "control the company's ability to find cheap labor," what you are really doing is controlling the company's ability to control costs. The company doesn't have control over their revenue; the only thing they can control is costs. When unions control, or or attempt to control costs as well, the result is a company that is only marginally profitable, or worse, losing money. "The union" doesn't pay you. The company pays you. If the company isn't profitable, then it won't be paying you for very long.

This idea would work well in a perfect system, where efficiency is maximized. But as we all know, we don't live in a perfect system, and management has been known to take from the employees' salaries and benefits to boost their own (an inefficiency that's certainly not unique to the airlines). If that can be stopped, then I can see the logic in taking pay cuts to help the company remain profitable. But until then, how are we to know that the cuts are really necessary?

 

[kellwolf]

Many airlines around the world operate safely with pilots who have less experience than ATP minimums. There are researchers out there who support the idea that you can exchange a certain amount of experience for training, aptitude, or a combination of both. So to say that all the profession's experts are on one side of the argument of whether one needs an ATP to be a safe pilot seems disingenuous.

Problem is, schools in America are gonna have to up their screening and entrance requirements for more than just a credit check. The training is gonna have to be some form of "if you don't pass X stage check, you get one more chance" type thing similar to initial new hire training at an airline. I've seen someone fail a checkride three times and just keep on trying until they finally pass it. Only then can you start to compare training in the US to some of those low time, ab initio training programs elsewhere in the world.

 

[jtrain609]

Problem is, schools in America are gonna have to up their screening and entrance requirements for more than just a credit check. The training is gonna have to be some form of "if you don't pass X stage check, you get one more chance" type thing similar to initial new hire training at an airline. I've seen someone fail a checkride three times and just keep on trying until they finally pass it. Only then can you start to compare training in the US to some of those low time, ab initio training programs elsewhere in the world.

Three? I'm pretty sure both of us have seen much worse than that.

 

[kellwolf]

Three? I'm pretty sure both of us have seen much worse than that.

That was just the one that popped into my head. Wasn't there one that went five? I wasn't 100% sure if it went that far, which is why I didn't mention it.

 

[TXaviator]

just wanna say my mother emailed me this article today with the comments along the lines "what?? i dont believe this. why dont you have a 90k a year job flying airliners by now. this cant be true"

the public is very divorced from reality.

 

[jtrain609]

That was just the one that popped into my head. Wasn't there one that went five? I wasn't 100% sure if it went that far, which is why I didn't mention it.

Six.

 

[MikeD]

just wanna say my mother emailed me this article today with the comments along the lines "what?? i dont believe this. why dont you have a 90k a year job flying airliners by now. this cant be true"

the public is very divorced from reality.

To them, all airline pilots are making $150K per year and driving their Corvette/BMW/Mercedes to work.

 

[TXaviator]

To them, all airline pilots are making $150K per year and driving their Corvette/BMW/Mercedes to work.

but how do we change that? more spikey hair, ipod, and backpacks in the terminal?

 

[MikeD]

but how do we change that? more spikey hair, ipod, and backpacks in the terminal?

Good question. It really seems that to the public, airline pilots don't have problems....they simply are rich kids flying planes. And with much of the public (especially in this economy) worried about their own problems, or even worried about their own 20 ft space around them.....or what's on sale at the mall; most just don't care about problems of pilots.

 

[400A]

Good question. It really seems that to the public, airline pilots don't have problems....they simply are rich kids flying planes. And with much of the public (especially in this economy) worried about their own problems, or even worried about their own 20 ft space around them.....or what's on sale at the mall; most just don't care about problems of pilots.

Honest questions.

Do you care about the problems of your local plumbers, electricians, heavy construction foremen? Do you care about the problems of your local police officers (ok MikeD probably does ) your local fire fighters (MikeD again), city engineers, etc?

The public's perception and compassion or lack thereof, should have no bearing on our work rules. The public doesn't negotiate CBAs or allow scope errosion, etc.

 

[MikeD]

Honest questions.

Do you care about the problems of your local plumbers, electricians, heavy construction foremen? Do you care about the problems of your local police officers (ok MikeD probably does ) your local fire fighters (MikeD again), city engineers, etc?

The public's perception and compassion or lack thereof, should have no bearing on our work rules. The public doesn't negotiate CBAs or allow scope errosion, etc.

I completely agree! I just think that its a tough road for those trying to get compassion from, or change the perception of, our profession to the overall public.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I completely agree! I just think that its a tough road for those trying to get compassion from, or change the perception of, our profession to the overall public.

I agree with 400A and MikeD.

We shouldn't be looking for sympathy. We aren't going to get any. We should get tough and negotiate a better wage. CEO's don't ask for our sympathy, they may tell congress they need a handout, but I don't see any crying. Unapologetically and methodically grab money from the pot and get us to a high level of pay.

 

[skydog2]

Labor should not be a variable cost anymore than the price of fuel is. The idea that a company "has no control over their revenue" is absolutely asinine, and is the exact mentality that has caused so many managements to fail. Proper revenue management is exactly why profitable airlines like AirTran and Allegiant are making so much money right now. AirTran has managed to increase ancillary revenue ten fold in the past couple of years. Were it not for this revenue stream, the company would not be profitable today. On the other hand, if the company gave every employee industry-leading pay, benefits, and work rules, we would still be profitable. The key is revenue management, not squeezing your employees for money.

Well certainly they can manage their revenue, but ultimately what determines their pricing is what the other guy is charging, and how much the consumer is willing to pay. They can charge whatever they like for a ticket, but if it is too much, the customer is going to go across the street. That's what I meant.

If I understand you correctly, if you remove the ancillary revenue, then Air Tran is just another unprofitable airline. I can't help but wonder if that is what ultimately happend at Midwest; that management found they could get a better ROI by being a virutal airline rather than an acutal airline. You sure you want to go down that road?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If I understand you correctly, if you remove the ancillary revenue, then Air Tran is just another unprofitable airline.

That's correct. Management was smart enough to build a successful ancillary revenue plan, and it's paid off handsomely.

I can't help but wonder if that is what ultimately happend at Midwest; that management found they could get a better ROI by being a virutal airline rather than an acutal airline. You sure you want to go down that road?

Those are two completely different concepts. Ancillary revenue is bag fees, WiFi, flight change fees, premium seat fees, etc. A "virtual airline" has no ancillary revenue, and by using fee-for-departure contracts, is actually more expensive than operating your own airline. It's a faulty business plan, as we all saw.

 

[skydog2]

So it's more like what happend at United with their Allegis corporation then with Midwest?

 

[Firebird2XC]

but how do we change that? more spikey hair, ipod, and backpacks in the terminal?

Speak out. I've spoken to several reporters, and thus far nobody's printed anything I didn't want said.

They've all been eager to hear from other pilots.

PBS Frontline News is doing a documentary about regional airline pilots and Colgan 3407 soon.

They were beating down my door asking for references and contacts for information, etc. I could barely scare up a few people, if that.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Speak out. I've spoken to several reporters, and thus far nobody's printed anything I didn't want said.

They've all been eager to hear from other pilots.

PBS Frontline News is doing a documentary about regional airline pilots and Colgan 3407 soon.

They were beating down my door asking for references and contacts for information, etc. I could barely scare up a few people, if that.

Well I don't know about everyone else, but I don't trust the media. Good for you for taking a chance Charlie. Just don't get bit in the backside (crossing my fingers for you).