The New York Times gets the pilot "shortage" 80% right

[drunkenbeagle]

So many folks excited about it until they figured out their management could just say no and limit it, and since there was no earned time, they owed you nothing if you leave. Nice way to clear the book of that liability.....clever game

Perhaps the only good thing about working for an large bank- there is almost always mandatory block leave. You usually are required to be out at least two weeks, and each vacation period has to be at least 5 days the bank is actually open, and you aren't allowed to take any calls or look at any email.

 

[jskibo]

Perhaps the only good thing about working for an large bank- there is almost always mandatory block leave. You usually are required to be out at least two weeks, and each vacation period has to be at least 5 days the bank is actually open, and you aren't allowed to take any calls or look at any email.

I must say here is a bit better than Boeing in that respect. At Boeing it was "You're taking your Blackberry right?", "If that meeting happens can you cut short and support?".

Been left alone for the most part here when I am on vacation....

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Why do I sense that this article contradicts itself a lot?

Airlines should do ab-initio training.....but jetBlue charged a whopping $125k (making it unattractive)

..

Is $125,000 unattractive? I paid $90,000 to get my commercial/instrument/multi and CFI in 2002...which according to an online source is roughly equivalent of $120,000 in today's dollars. I would do what I did again. This has been a good career, and that's even if I were going through the same route (CFI to Regional to Major). But imagine if I could have gotten on at JetBlue in 2005 instead of with ASA in 2005. How much further along would I be in terms of salary and overall QOL?

The people who go that route will invest 3 years of their life and $125,000, and at the end of it they go to a major airline and get directly to the better pay and work rules associated. No wonder 1,400 people applied for the program. The time and financial investment are low compared to the career earnings they will expect. I got hired at my company at 35. How much better would it have been if I could have gotten hired at 28? That's a huge difference in career earnings.

My wife paid roughly $250,000 to become a doctor. She earns roughly what a 4 year E190 Captain makes at JetBlue. Obviously upgrade times vary, but even if it were 6 years, someone spending $125,000 to get into that job would be far ahead of my wife financially. She was in med school for 4 years, and did a 3 year residency earning in the $30,000 - $40,000 range. Only after those 7 years did she begin to be in the mid $100,000s. A 5 year Airbus captain earns more. A 10 year Airbus captain earns far more.

 

[tcco94]

Is $125,000 unattractive? I paid $90,000 to get my commercial/instrument/multi and CFI in 2002...which according to an online source is roughly equivalent of $120,000 in today's dollars. I would do what I did again. This has been a good career, and that's even if I were going through the same route (CFI to Regional to Major). But imagine if I could have gotten on at JetBlue in 2005 instead of with ASA in 2005. How much further along would I be in terms of salary and overall QOL?

The people who go that route will invest 3 years of their life and $125,000, and at the end of it they go to a major airline and get directly to the better pay and work rules associated. No wonder 1,400 people applied for the program. The time and financial investment are low compared to the career earnings they will expect. I got hired at my company at 35. How much better would it have been if I could have gotten hired at 28? That's a huge difference in career earnings.

My wife paid roughly $250,000 to become a doctor. She earns roughly what a 4 year E190 Captain makes at JetBlue. Obviously upgrade times vary, but even if it were 6 years, someone spending $125,000 to get into that job would be far ahead of my wife financially. She was in med school for 4 years, and did a 3 year residency earning in the $30,000 - $40,000 range. Only after those 7 years did she begin to be in the mid $100,000s. A 5 year Airbus captain earns more. A 10 year Airbus captain earns far more.

Do I think it's unattractive? Not really. Do others? Probably.

If you want my two cents, It cost me $170,000 for a Bachelors degree, commercial ASEL/AMEL, CFI/CFII...with scholarships and grants...total I paid was $90k and I'm very happy with that to get a free $80k that I don't have to pay back. Also, took me 3 years and after CFI'ing I'll spend about 4 1/2 years from private to airline. Some do it faster and I'm sure cheaper at ATP etc. and some longer but $125k and you don't even have a degree to fall back on....that's gonna be hard to pitch...IMO. I'm surprised that many applied but it does sound attractive to just have a job at jetBlue waiting for you.

I think it's a fair price but that's just my opinion.

 

[BCTAv8r]

Well said.

I'm one of the very few people here that have had both a lucrative engineering career and a pretty long stint in professional aviation (going on 10 years as a pro pilot).

For whatever reason, I still haven't found that long term career position in aviation. I've instructed, flown 135, 91 corporate, and slogged it out in the regionals. I'm currently an RJ CA, and you know what? This still beats the heck out of my days in the office, without any question. I have way, WAY more time off to pursue the hobbies I love than my 8-5 counter-parts do.

I'm very fortunate to have this unique perspective... The biggest whiners I've ever come across in this industry have never had a job outside aviation. They think everyone else has a two hour lunch, banker hours, no late evenings, and blissful, stress free evening at home. I'm here to tell you, that is a unicorn.

Not a pilot for a living yet, so I can't compare it to working an office job. But along with all of the BS of working in corporate America (office politics, long hours, etc), I noticed that the older people at my company who had gotten to higher positions probably got paid pretty well, but they worked ALL THE TIME, were always checking and replying to email at all hours, conference calls from home at night to have meetings with clients in other time zones, and a decent amount of traveling. I'm sure aviation will have its own BS when I get there, but I do like that as time goes on, I get paid more and more to work less. Can't say the same about the corporate America experience I've seen.

 

[AA34]

Is $125,000 unattractive?

In the sense you're talking, yes.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Do I think it's unattractive? Not really. Do others? Probably.

If you want my two cents, It cost me $170,000 for a Bachelors degree, commercial ASEL/AMEL, CFI/CFII...with scholarships and grants...total I paid was $90k and I'm very happy with that to get a free $80k that I don't have to pay back. Also, took me 3 years and after CFI'ing I'll spend about 4 1/2 years from private to airline. Some do it faster and I'm sure cheaper at ATP etc. and some longer but $125k and you don't even have a degree to fall back on....that's gonna be hard to pitch...IMO. I'm surprised that many applied but it does sound attractive to just have a job at jetBlue waiting for you.

I think it's a fair price but that's just my opinion.

Many who apply will already have a degree, I'm betting. They are only taking 24, and the screening process is pretty thorough. It will be very interesting to see who gets selected.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

In the sense you're talking, yes.

Why? Financially, it makes the most sense. If you take 2 years to pay your way through flight training, then 2 more years to get to 1,500 hours (regional hire), then 3-4 more years to get competitive on hours, plus 6 months after the interview to get a class date (major), you have cost yourself far more than $125,000 in lost wages by not taking the fastest route to higher pay.

 

[tcco94]

Many who apply will already have a degree, I'm betting. They are only taking 24, and the screening process is pretty thorough. It will be very interesting to see who gets selected.

I thought they were pitching to high schoolers as like an ATP style thing. I didn't know it was so selective and tough. Hopefully those who get denied don't just give up on the aviation field all together .

Sounds like trying to get a military pilot slot. Recruiters pretty much made it sound like it was extremely competitive to get a slot so I went the college route and never looked back at military. If that many are interested in that program I wonder how many will still achieve their dream or just do something else.

 

[Springer]

The time and financial investment are low compared to the career earnings they will expect. I got hired at my company at 35. How much better would it have been if I could have gotten hired at 28? That's a huge difference in career earnings.

I was hired by a legacy at 35 and retired at 59. LBYM and you will do just fine as I am in retirement.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Not a pilot for a living yet, so I can't compare it to working an office job. But along with all of the BS of working in corporate America (office politics, long hours, etc), I noticed that the older people at my company who had gotten to higher positions probably got paid pretty well, but they worked ALL THE TIME, were always checking and replying to email at all hours, conference calls from home at night to have meetings with clients in other time zones, and a decent amount of traveling. I'm sure aviation will have its own BS when I get there, but I do like that as time goes on, I get paid more and more to work less. Can't say the same about the corporate America experience I've seen.

This is exactly what made me decide to change careers. I remember my Project Managers sending me emails over the weekend, or when they were on "vacation", etc. The path to a six figure salary as an engineer was to follow their footsteps, and that really bothered me.

At one point I was talking to one of the senior engineers about it, and how I couldn't shake the feeling that this was not what I wanted to do with my life. He replied, "GypsyPilot, after awhile that part of you dies, and then you're ok with it". That's some crazy stuff right there, and I knew then and there that I would at least try to live my life the way I wanted to.

Most people will NOT follow their dreams. It's scary. It scared the crap out of me, even as an unattached 20 something with very little responsibility. I was walking away from a career and education that I had to bust my ass and climb through poverty for... But it was without a doubt the right move for me, as I'm much happier now.

 

[mshunter]

humanity contradicts itself



Why would your child be investigated by the state? I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed...but are you talking about "child support taxes" and the inequality evilness behind that matter? Yep, as a father parent, you are not allowed to be poor. You should be rich enough to hire a nanny to raise your child or your wife (or baby momma) leaves and you pay her to raise your child. You are a sperm donor with a paycheck attached and it better be a good paycheck. The ability to work trumps your right to choose where to work now. America, F'yeah!!!

whoops, school investigated by the state... wait until they zero in on your child and the roaches come out of the woodwork claiming to know what is best for them for they are professionals and get paid to do so. Scabs in aviation are nothing compared to these scabs that run amuck.

Yeah, with tax time here, I have dependants that I can not claim. Just another reason the IRS is full of evil. Don't even get me started.

 

[mshunter]

This is exactly what made me decide to change careers. I remember my Project Managers sending me emails over the weekend, or when they were on "vacation", etc. The path to a six figure salary as an engineer was to follow their footsteps, and that really bothered me.

At one point I was talking to one of the senior engineers about it, and how I couldn't shake the feeling that this was not what I wanted to do with my life. He replied, "GypsyPilot, after awhile that part of you dies, and then you're ok with it". That's some crazy stuff right there, and I knew then and there that I would at least try to live my life the way I wanted to.

Most people will NOT follow their dreams. It's scary. It scared the crap out of me, even as an unattached 20 something with very little responsibility. I was walking away from a career and education that I had to bust my ass and climb through poverty for... But it was without a doubt the right move for me, as I'm much happier now.

I have given up a lot, sacrificed a lot, and been through a lot of pain, just to be happy at work. Because it leads to being happy when you're not. And I'd start that same path again tomorrow.

 

[RamRise]

Keep in mind I'm at the bottom so maybe that's why I'm getting the "you're in a good spot" comment compared to the guys already in the middle of it....except I don't understand? If I plan on going to a regional in the next 10 months...won't we be screwed and the above guys be better off at getting a shot up than I? I guess this all depends on who you're with and what the future of your company holds...

I'm a little under a year out from ATP mins and I get this comment from time to time myself. I think they mean career progression SHOULD proceed more seamlessly than it has for the past (Aka "lost") generation. In other words, Regional FO to RJ CA to Legacy (the most conventional path) in 4-6 years rather than 10. Hiring being strong should insulate guys entering in at this period from too much disruption like Furloughs, Bankruptcies etc. Even if those occurs, which they will in this extremely volatile industry, the market for lateral moves with competitive compensation should remain. The pattern I see is the key is to stay flexible until you land that job at a career airline.

 

[splash]

I have given up a lot, sacrificed a lot, and been through a lot of pain, just to be happy at work. Because it leads to being happy when you're not. And I'd start that same path again tomorrow.

Ditto. I don't use the four letter word work anymore. This is my livelihood and my career. I don't want it to ever to become work. If it ever does, this is when I need to move on to something else to replace what I had. I just refuse to be disgruntled about what I chose to do in life. I'm glad things are better in aviation for us financially and finally moving forward, not to say I would not have the drive and discontinue this path I've been on for so many years even if not moving forward.

 

[hook_dupin]

This is the modus operandi of just about every airline though. Wait till it gets so bad that it hurts the bottom line, then throw a hail marry pass and hope for the best.

It sounds crazy, but most executive teams of public companies will chose current year gain over out-year prosperity. Bonuses are all tied to current stock price and the lifespan of a CEO at a public company is only a few years.

 

[Xcaliber]

It sounds crazy, but most executive teams of public companies will chose current year gain over out-year prosperity. Bonuses are all tied to current stock price and the lifespan of a CEO at a public company is only a few years.

In fact, I think by law all publicly owned companies are required to do what is in the best interest of the shareholders and not necessarily what is best for the company and certainly not what is best for the employees. In general, investors and shareholders want profits and gains NOW, not later. When things go south, they can sell off their shares and never look back. Looking at it through that lens, airline management did exactly what they were "required" to do, which was to reduce costs and maximize profits.

To be fair, mainline recruiting departments know whats up and are doing their best to prepare for the future, including building up ab initio programs. Also, regional airlines were stuck in the middle of it all and were whipsawed against each other, so they didn't really have a choice in the matter.

Be that as it may, it doesn't excuse them for not acting on a foreseeable problem when they had the chance to act on it. Or put another way, you don't get to complain about it now when you chose not to do something about it then. The fact remains that the head honchos at mainline created this problem several years ago and now they have to deal with the consequences. For us pilots, it is what it is and we just have to move forward with it.

 

[CFI A&P]

Is $125,000 unattractive? I paid $90,000 to get my commercial/instrument/multi and CFI in 2002...which according to an online source is roughly equivalent of $120,000 in today's dollars. I would do what I did again. This has been a good career, and that's even if I were going through the same route (CFI to Regional to Major). But imagine if I could have gotten on at JetBlue in 2005 instead of with ASA in 2005. How much further along would I be in terms of salary and overall QOL?

The people who go that route will invest 3 years of their life and $125,000, and at the end of it they go to a major airline and get directly to the better pay and work rules associated. No wonder 1,400 people applied for the program. The time and financial investment are low compared to the career earnings they will expect. I got hired at my company at 35. How much better would it have been if I could have gotten hired at 28? That's a huge difference in career earnings.

My wife paid roughly $250,000 to become a doctor. She earns roughly what a 4 year E190 Captain makes at JetBlue. Obviously upgrade times vary, but even if it were 6 years, someone spending $125,000 to get into that job would be far ahead of my wife financially. She was in med school for 4 years, and did a 3 year residency earning in the $30,000 - $40,000 range. Only after those 7 years did she begin to be in the mid $100,000s. A 5 year Airbus captain earns more. A 10 year Airbus captain earns far more.

Man, my wife is an attorney and I thought I had a bad stereotype.

 

[Oregonflyer]

You say that like its a bad thing. This is good for the pilots of the industry who will reap the benefits of higher pay and better quality of life.

I went through the same thing in the late 90s with the mellinium bug (AKA Y2K). Pay was poor before that but suddenly if you knew fortran or any mainframe languages suddenly you could demand any pay you wanted. And it continues to this day. If the same thing happens in aviation we are seeing the start of a beautiful thing.

Don't forget the Melissa virus!!!

 

[Murdoughnut]

I prefer the work 24/7 model. You know why? Because rarely do I ever get that 11pm emergency call, but what I do get is the 10am kid's school performance that I want to attend. I gladly trade having my phone next to me on vacation to be able to leave work during the day to run errands without question.

But then again, I love my office job. It's challenging and I'm rewarded based on my production, not on when I was hired. Prefer it that way - more control over my own destiny.