CSEL Priveleges Questions

[killbilly]

So. Just to clarify at least one scenario....

• If I pay for the airplane to be used for company business and then get reimbursed by my company, it's gray area and could get me in trouble.

• But if the company pays for the airplane and asks me to do to the flying, it's much, much less of a gray area and that's okay.

So if they give me a company credit card to do something like this, then option b applies and I'm likely okay?

Strange. I know this is dumb to a lot of you, but I don't always understand the FARs as written.

 

[Ian_J]

This has been very enlightening.

From what I've been able to gather here, the utility of having a CSEL/CMEL is much lower than I previously thought, and while I understand the purpose of the rules on holding out, the gray areas are massive beartraps that could get otherwise well-meaning people in trouble.

Generally, think of the commercial certificate as a way to:

- Become a flight instructor.
- Get a job.

 

[killbilly]

Generally, think of the commercial certificate as a way to:

- Become a flight instructor.
- Get a job.

Yeah, it really seems that the FAA starts to separate the concept of owner/user and pilot with some pretty thick layers of regulations. To my mind (and maybe it's just because the regs don't read the way I want them to) it's a little stifling.

But if I were in charge of setting such standards - particularly in the 135 area - I don't know that I'd do it differently.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Ian_J]

Yeah, it is stifling, but think of the alternative. What if any 250 hour commercial pilot could advertise and execute point to point service in their 172?anic:

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I guess the part that bugs me is that there is absolutely nothing illegal about doing the same things in a car - even though there are taxis, limos and other "charter" type services which can be done with a road-vehicle as opposed to an aircraft.

In many states (I don't know if there are exceptions) you can't just buy an old bus and start charging for cross country trips. Nor can you take your car, stick a "Taxi" sign on the roof, and hold yourself out as a taxi - even with a commercial drivers license. Of course, you =can= offer to drive a neighbor somewhere and he's allowed to pay you for the gas.

It's really a matter of degree. I'd guess that if you went through the regulation of public travel, you'd find that the restrictions increase in proportion with (1) an increase in the perceived risk of the activity, (2) an increase in the amount the activity is used by the public, and a (3) decrease in the average guy's level of knowledge about the activity.

 

[Matt13C]

What if you are CSEL rated and own your own plane.

Can you be fully reimbursed for flying yourself to a business meeting or to pick up a part just as you would be if you drove?

I think I understand the who "holding out". Is it still a gray area if you do not make a profit and only break even? How about if the plane happens to break while on a trip and your company covers the cost of the repairs?

 

[HeyEng]

What if you are CSEL rated and own your own plane.

Can you be fully reimbursed for flying yourself to a business meeting or to pick up a part just as you would be if you drove?

I think I understand the who "holding out". Is it still a gray area if you do not make a profit and only break even? How about if the plane happens to break while on a trip and your company covers the cost of the repairs?

I'm a little curious about this too. I would imagine it would be about the same if you rented it out. 100 hour inspections, insurance requirements and such. I can't wait to have my next Air Force TDY where I am going to use "Privately Owned Airplane". The last time I looked, the reimbursement was about a little over a buck a mile!

 

[tgrayson]

Is it still a gray area if you do not make a profit and only break even?

Whether you make a profit or not isn't relevant.

 

[Matt13C]

So, as a commercially rated pilot, I will no longer have to pay my pro rata share. If my company wants to send me another state for a meeting, I can choose to take my plane and expense the whole thing and there will be no issue.

If however, I offer my services continually and act as a corporate charter, flying employees around and being compensated without a 135 or 91 certificate, not sure which I would need as I have no started studying for this yet, this could be considered holding out and the FAA would be unhappy?

Is that correct?

 

[RWH1986]

So, how do you get caught holding out?

IMO The FAA really needs to rewrite all the rules about this kinda stuff.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

So, as a commercially rated pilot, I will no longer have to pay my pro rata share. If my company wants to send me another state for a meeting, I can choose to take my plane and expense the whole thing and there will be no issue.

There's no issue there as a private pilot either. Even though you have a commercial certificate, when you fly to another state for a meeting you are only exercising private pilot privileges.

If however, I offer my services continually and act as a corporate charter, flying employees around and being compensated without a 135 or 91 certificate, not sure which I would need as I have no started studying for this yet, this could be considered holding out and the FAA would be unhappy?

Is that correct?

The most confusing thing in all this for most is the "holding out" part. It's actually not so much the "holding out" as it is that, when we talk about this, we tend to mix a whole bunch of different concepts into a big box without really understanding what each one means on its own.

I suggested earlier that "holding out" is just plain English. All is really means is "letting you know that you are available." That really is the case.

"Holding out" is a traditional tests for the difference between "private carriage" and "common carriage". It's legal meaning goes back to well before the Wright Brothers' flight. Probably back to the stage coach.

In the context we are talking about, all it means is that you are letting the public that you are available for transportation. You don't have to advertise either - word of mouth that people "know" you are available is enough.

The problem in your second scenario isn't that you are "holding out." It's that you are "holding out" your self to be available to do something that you are not permitted to do without a Part 135 certificate - provide charter services (transporting people from place to place for compensation).

You are allowed to "hold out" things that you are allowed to do. A CFI is permitted to "hold out" instructional services. A commercial pilot is permitted to "hold out" his availability to do any of the things that 119.1 says you don't need an operating certificate for. A commercial pilot is allowed to "hold out" his availability to take a corporate to airline or cargo flying job (it's called filing out a job application).

To understand the differences, it probably makes more sense to forget about "holding out" and examine the operation itself. Then, at the end, if there's any question about whether the operation is public or private, you look at the "holding out" issue.

 

[Matt13C]

There's no issue there as a private pilot either. Even though you have a commercial certificate, when you fly to another state for a meeting you are only exercising private pilot privileges.

As a private pilot I cant be reimbursed though can I?

Sometimes my company sends us to our print shop up in Mass and will pay for airfare and transportation. As a PPL I could fly myself, but I cant be reimbursed, as I understand it.

Thanks for the detailed write up.

 

[killbilly]

As a private pilot I cant be reimbursed though can I?

Yes, you can. I asked this very question on this very forum a few months ago.

If the business travel is incidental to the business - in other words - if it's something you would have driven a car for - then you can be reimbursed for the flight.

You cannot fly another co-worker with you for the sole purpose of transporting him to that meeting, though. Get it?

Sometimes my company sends us to our print shop up in Mass and will pay for airfare and transportation. As a PPL I could fly myself, but I cant be reimbursed, as I understand it.

Thanks for the detailed write up.

You can be reimbursed.

 

[Matt13C]

Yes, you can. I asked this very question on this very forum a few months ago.

If the business travel is incidental to the business - in other words - if it's something you would have driven a car for - then you can be reimbursed for the flight.

You cannot fly another co-worker with you for the sole purpose of transporting him to that meeting, though. Get it?



You can be reimbursed.

Got it. I guess I was focusing to much on the whole, pay your fair share aspect.

I most likely read that thread and just did not remember the answer. :banghead:

Thanks

 

[cool92092]

I knew a guy who owned his own airplane and instead of charter, offered instruction to your destination. Get them a logbook and endorsed it (CFI ofcourse) for the flight time. He would charge for the empty legs back to home airport. Seemed sneeky to me at the time but looking back, I don't think there's anyway someone could call foul play.

 

[ajf005]

Keep it simple...as a commercial pilot you provide your piloting services for an aircraft that is provided to you. You can advertise your services to fly but cannot provide the aircraft to fly in. It is up to your employer (135 charter ops or 91) to provide the aircraft. Some FBO's allow people to rent planes that do not have a pilot certificate, if said person asks you to fly them then its ok because they are providing the rented plane. Let the FBO and the customer figure out the legalities of the renting and insuraning process.

As for the situation about renting the plane yourself and being repaid for an expensive car wash....to me it sounds shady but legal. No one will ever know so if you can sleep at night then do it. Id ask for the payment in cash haha I think the FAA has better things to be doing besides chasing iffy 135 ops in every small town. Just dont piss off the local charter service to the point that they report you, thats when the Feds may step in and its up to you to prove it was legal (guilty until proven innocent)

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Got it. I guess I was focusing to much on the whole, pay your fair share aspect.

It's not the easiest one and there's a lot of official interpretation that adds to it, but you need to read at 61.113 to get the basics.

Start with 113(a) which says the general rule that a private pilot can accept nothing in exchange for flying. Then it sets out a series of boxes of specific situations in which a pilot can get something. The problem is that you need to go outside the FAR itself to make some of those boxes meaningful (like knowing that a shared flight has to have a shared purpose) but there's no way to figure any what's in them unless you know the boxes exist.

And that they are separate. If you fit into the shared expense box, it doesn't have to be a business flight. If yo fit into the incidental to business box, it doesn't have to be sahred.

I think this is all confusing because the FAA is actually trying to be fair. It could have made a simple black and with rule. Written 61.113(a) and put in no exceptions.

==============================
No person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire
==============================

Simple. A couple of official interpretations of what "compensation" and "hire" are and you get a nice simple rule that says you can't get anything in exchange for flying. No reimbursement; no tax deductions for charity flights; no sharing expenses with buddies for the trip to the Super Bowl.

What the FAA actually did though, was to open up some things that were pretty obviously not part of being a charter or air taxi or airline. So what happens? You can see it even here - questions (sometimes just academic) about, "Well, if I do it this way, can I fit it into the "sharing" exception and get around the reg?"

So the application of the rule tends to be case-by-case with the most generally useful rule being "if it quacks like a duck..."

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

As for the situation about renting the plane yourself and being repaid for an expensive car wash....to me it sounds shady but legal.

Actually, I think it's technically illegal. Barter is definitely payment.

Getting caught, well that's a different issue...

 

[killbilly]

What the FAA actually did though, was to open up some things that were pretty obviously not part of being a charter or air taxi or airline. So what happens? You can see it even here - questions (sometimes just academic) about, "Well, if I do it this way, can I fit it into the "sharing" exception and get around the reg?"

So the application of the rule tends to be case-by-case with the most generally useful rule being "if it quacks like a duck..."

I've always suspected that the FAA sort of allowed the extras as an accomodation to GA in general. The fact is that many GA pilots use the priveleges of their tickets to conduct business. It's good for business, it's good for GA because that money is going back into the GA system.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I've always suspected that the FAA sort of allowed the extras as an accomodation to GA in general. The fact is that many GA pilots use the priveleges of their tickets to conduct business. It's good for business, it's good for GA because that money is going back into the GA system.

I think you are probably right. It would be interesting to see the socio-political context in which those rules were originally made.