CSEL Priveleges Questions

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Just some hypotheticals here...I know most of the answers will be "look to the FARs" but I'm curious about where to look to them. I've decided that the immediate goals are to get the IR and then the CSEL, because I would like to do some volunteer work for Angel Flights. I really like the idea of using my tickets to help people in that way. But in addition to that, I'm curious about what else I can do with my CSEL...so...

Pretend for a moment that Killbilly has somehow earned his CSEL ticket. He's legal to fly for hire. Some questions about that....

1) A couple of friends want to pay me to fly them down to the beach for the weekend. Do you have to file something with the FSDO saying, "Yeah, Ralph and Chloe are paying me for this flight," even though I don't have a 135 charter cert or anything?

2) My employer needs me to fly another employee to a job site. Then they need me to fly elsewhere, pick up a couple parts, and deliver them some place. This is all within the context of my employment with the company. What all needs to be done for tasks like this to be legal?

3) I have a sideline personal business. I make a few trips hither and yon to visit clients, vendors, etc. Because the flying is for my business, the costs can be deducted as operational business expenses, yes?

Thanks. Just looking at possibilities.
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
1) A couple of friends want to pay me to fly them down to the beach for the weekend. Do you have to file something with the FSDO saying, "Yeah, Ralph and Chloe are paying me for this flight," even though I don't have a 135 charter cert or anything?

Nothing with the Feds...my best suggestion is to not deal with the money for the airplane. Make them pay for the airplane directly...I wouldn't accept a lump sump for the airplane and your services together.

2) My employer needs me to fly another employee to a job site. Then they need me to fly elsewhere, pick up a couple parts, and deliver them some place. This is all within the context of my employment with the company. What all needs to be done for tasks like this to be legal?

Again I just wouldn't get involved with the actual airplane. If they own one fine. If they need to rent one the company needs to do it on their own. You just should be there to fly the airplane. Holding out and all that good stuff is pretty gray...and the FAA with gray area can be scary.

3) I have a sideline personal business. I make a few trips hither and yon to visit clients, vendors, etc. Because the flying is for my business, the costs can be deducted as operational business expenses, yes?

Sorry not a clue
 

Nark

Macho Superpilot
killbilly said:
1) A couple of friends want to pay me to fly them down to the beach for the weekend. Do you have to file something with the FSDO saying, "Yeah, Ralph and Chloe are paying me for this flight," even though I don't have a 135 charter cert or anything?
You don't have to talk to anyone but the IRS, as that is taxable income. You aren't flying 135, basically part 91.


killbilly said:
2) My employer needs me to fly another employee to a job site. Then they need me to fly elsewhere, pick up a couple parts, and deliver them some place. This is all within the context of my employment with the company. What all needs to be done for tasks like this to be legal?
Just what you need to en regards to flying legally under the FAR's if you were taking a friend privately.

killbilly said:
3) I have a sideline personal business. I make a few trips hither and yon to visit clients, vendors, etc. Because the flying is for my business, the costs can be deducted as operational business expenses, yes?
Talk to a tax accountant, but basically yes.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
If you rent the airplane or it is your airplane then you are kind of holding out (or it could be argued that you are.) However, if your client rents or owns the airplane then you are not holding out.
Jhugz' advice seems solid (and is the textbook answer expected from you on a commercial or CFI checkride ;) )
 

JLF

Well-Known Member
If you rent the airplane or it is your airplane then you are kind of holding out (or it could be argued that you are.) However, if your client rents or owns the airplane then you are not holding out.
Jhugz' advice seems solid (and is the textbook answer expected from you on a commercial or CFI checkride ;) )
:yeahthat:
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Okay, what is this "holding out" thing? Can someone provide a link?

Typically, in the case of working with my company, they reimburse me for expenses. So if I was doing something for the company, I'd be renting the aircraft and then getting an expense check for it. This is a problem?
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
Yes...I would touch any Commercial OP with a 10 ft pool in which I would have to get the airplane and then be refunded. They need to pay for the plane directly.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Holding out as defined by an advisory circular:

AC 120 12A said:
4 GUIDELINES.
to the public, A carrier becomes a common carrier when it "holds itself out"
or to a segment of the public, as willing to furnish
transportation within the limits of its facilities to any person who wants it.
Absence of tariffs or rate schedules, transportation only pursuant to separately
negotiated contracts, or occasional refusals to transport, are not conclusive
proof that the carrier is not a common carrier. There are four elements in
defining a common carrier; (1) a holding out of a willingness to (2) transport
persons or property (3) from place to place (4) for compensation. This "holding
out" which makes a person a common carrier can be done in many ways and it does
not matter how it is done.
a. Signs and advertising are the most direct means of "holding out"
but are not the only ones.
AC 120~12A 4124186
b. A "holding out" may be accomplished through the actions of agents,
agencies, or salesmen who may, themselves, procure passenger traffic from the
general public and collect them into groups to be carried by the operator. It
is particularly important to determine if such agents or salesmen are in the
business of selling transportation to the traveling public not only through
the '*group*' approach but also by individual ticketing on known common carriers.
c. physical1y holding out without advertising where a reputation to serve
all is gained is sufficient to constitute an offer to carry all customers. There
are many means by which physical holding out may take place. For example, the
expression of willingness to all customers with whom contact is made that the
operator can and will perform the requested service is sufficient. The fact that
the holding out generates little success is of no consequence. The nature and
character of the operation are the important issue.
d. Carriage for hire which does not involve "holding out" is private
carriage. Private carriers for hire are sometimes called "contract carriers," but
the term is borrowed from the Interstate Commerce Act and legally inaccurate when I*
used in connection with the Federal Aviation Act. Private carriage for hire is
carriage for one or several selected customers, generally on a long-term basis.
The number of contracts must not be too great, otherwise it implies a willingness
to make a contract with anybody. A carrier operating pursuant to 18 to 24
contracts has been held to be a common carrier because it held itself out to s,erve
the public generally to the extent of its facilities. Private carriage'has -been '
found in cases where three contracts have been the sole basis of the operator's
business. Special adaptation of the transportation service to the individual L
needs of shippers is a factor tending to establish private carriage but is not
necessarily conclusive.
e. A carrier holding itself out as generally willing to carry only certain
kinds of traffic is, nevertheless, a common carrier. For instance, a carrier
authorized or willing only to carry planeloads of passengers, cargo, or mail on a
charter basis is a common carrier, if it so holds itself out. This is, in fact,
the basic business of supplemental air carriers.
f. A carrier flying charters for only one organization may be a common
carrier if membership in the organization and participation in the flights are, in
effect, open to a significant segment of the public. Similarly, a carrier which
flies planeload charters for a common carrier, carrying the latter's traffic,
engages in common carriage itself.
& Occasionally, offers of free transportation have been made to the general
public by hotels, casinos, etc. In such cases, nominal charges have been made
which, according to the operators, bear the expense of gifts and gratuities.
However, the operators maintain that the transportation is free. The courts have
held that such operations are common carriage based on the fact that the passengers
are drawn from the general public and the nominal charge constituted compensation.
h. Persons admittedly operating as common carriers in a certain field (for
instance, in intrastate commerce) sometimes claim that transportation for hire
which they perform in other fields (for instance, interstate or foreign commerce)
is private carriage. To sustain such a claim, the carrier must show that the
private carriage is clearly distinguishable from its common carriage business
and outside the scope of its holding out. The claimed private carriage must be
viewed in relation to and against the background of the entire carrying activity.
Historically, Civil Aeronautics Board decisions have concluded that only in rare
instances could carriage engaged in by a common carrier be legitimately
classified as private.
i. In summary, persons intending to conduct only private operations in
support of other business should look cautiously at any proposal for revenue-
generating flights which most likely would require certification as an air
carrier.
je Persons who have questions concerning intended operation of their
aircraft are encouraged to discuss their proposed operation with the Regional
Counsel of the FAA region in which it intends to establish its principal
business office. Such early interviews will materially assist the applicant
in avoiding many of the "pitfalls" which could result in illegal common carriage
operations.
 

Stomp16

You mean Shennanigans?!?!
Yes...I would touch any Commercial OP with a 10 ft pool in which I would have to get the airplane and then be refunded. They need to pay for the plane directly.
If you are interested to take people up, you can do it within 25SM of the departure airport, call it sightseeing and be compensated for it. I took friends and co-workers up quite often for dates and whatnot......Built about 40 hours that way.
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
If you are interested to take people up, you can do it within 25SM of the departure airport, call it sightseeing and be compensated for it. I took friends and co-workers up quite often for dates and whatnot......Built about 40 hours that way.
It does not sound like that is what he is planning to do.
 

mhcasey

Well-Known Member
Bill - Most have said this in fewer words, but the basic rules are:

  1. You do not provide the airplane without a 135 Certificate.
  2. You do not put up flyers, run radio/tv ads, or whatever saying, "Hey I'll fly whoever needs a ride!"
  3. You do not Accumulate dozens and dozens of regular customers.
The Feds don't have a strict rule on just how many folks you can fly around for compensation. The important thing is to not make the appearance of advertising oneself as a one-man-airline.

Everything you mentioned would be perfectly legal, IMO.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Bill - Most have said this in fewer words, but the basic rules are:

  1. You do not provide the airplane without a 135 Certificate.
  2. You do not put up flyers, run radio/tv ads, or whatever saying, "Hey I'll fly whoever needs a ride!"
  3. You do not Accumulate dozens and dozens of regular customers.
The Feds don't have a strict rule on just how many folks you can fly around for compensation. The important thing is to not make the appearance of advertising oneself as a one-man-airline.

Everything you mentioned would be perfectly legal, IMO.
Thanks, all. I need to parse that circular a bit.

The way things read to me (which is not necessarily FAA-ese) I wouldn't necessarily be "holding out" since it's something I'd be doing as part of my regular job...wouldn't be advertising or trying to be a carrier, per se.

As for the other things, that makes sense.
 

FlySooner9

Well-Known Member
ok, bare with me here, i know this sounds funny and im not doing it but.. What if you were to fly someone in a rented plane to xyz destination, you pay for all expenses with your own money. A week later you wash that persons car for them and they pay you an awful lot of money that just so happens to cover all the costs of the trip. The FAA rules just seem so i don't know, easy to get around?
 

Stomp16

You mean Shennanigans?!?!
ok, bare with me here, i know this sounds funny and im not doing it but.. What if you were to fly someone in a rented plane to xyz destination, you pay for all expenses with your own money. A week later you wash that persons car for them and they pay you an awful lot of money that just so happens to cover all the costs of the trip. The FAA rules just seem so i don't know, easy to get around?

Come on now......you know the answer to your own question. It comes down to your personal beliefs and ethics. If you feel like you can break/bend the rules, get away with it and feel fine. Then I would bet your going to do it.
 

dc3flyer

Well-Known Member
My favorite of all time....


So a friend of mine owns a seafood restaurant in Tennessee. He wants me to fly down to Savannah and pick up fresh shrimp every day. He will pay me, enough to cover the shrimp, the plane, and my time (an agreed amount).

Do I need a commercial cert? He is technically only paying for "fresh shrimp".




I heard this conversation 10 years ago in an FBO and I think it is just what Stomp said, it is personal ethics and IF you will get caught.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
3) I have a sideline personal business. I make a few trips hither and yon to visit clients, vendors, etc. Because the flying is for my business, the costs can be deducted as operational business expenses, yes?
Heck yeah. The company could rent a you a car, but they didn't, they rented you an airplane. You are rated for that airplane, you can fly that airplane.


JHUGZ is absolutely right when he talks about this being a grey zone in the FARs. The word "willingness" really throws a wrench into the black/white factor. Just be careful.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
ok, bare with me here, i know this sounds funny and im not doing it but.. What if you were to fly someone in a rented plane to xyz destination, you pay for all expenses with your own money. A week later you wash that persons car for them and they pay you an awful lot of money that just so happens to cover all the costs of the trip. The FAA rules just seem so i don't know, easy to get around?
The FAA rules on this are an outgrowth of two policies - (1) to require higher minimum standards for those who fly for money, and especially for those who get paid to transport people and property, and (2) to protect those who have spent the time and money to meet those standards.

Whether those rules are "easy to get around" depends. Yup, if it's a quiet airport, you never do anything that might cause the FAA to want to look at you more closely, you never do anything to make your customer unhappy, and no Part 135 operator happens to notice and report you, you chances of being caught are about the same as any other illegal business operation.

No comment on the three scenarios in the OP, although I hear that on #1, there is a form you file with the FSDO - FAA Form 134.5, "Notification of Intent to Fly an Illegal Charter." They like that. :D

And, btw, "holding out" is pretty much English with a history. It just means letting people know you are available.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
This has been very enlightening.

From what I've been able to gather here, the utility of having a CSEL/CMEL is much lower than I previously thought, and while I understand the purpose of the rules on holding out, the gray areas are massive beartraps that could get otherwise well-meaning people in trouble.

You learn in your PPL studies what you can and can't do because you don't have a commercial ticket. Then you get a commercial ticket and you still have - from a practical standpoint - many of the same limitations.

I guess the part that bugs me is that there is absolutely nothing illegal about doing the same things in a car - even though there are taxis, limos and other "charter" type services which can be done with a road-vehicle as opposed to an aircraft.

It's annoying. But I guess that's part of the learning process.
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
This has been very enlightening.

From what I've been able to gather here, the utility of having a CSEL/CMEL is much lower than I previously thought, and while I understand the purpose of the rules on holding out, the gray areas are massive beartraps that could get otherwise well-meaning people in trouble.

You learn in your PPL studies what you can and can't do because you don't have a commercial ticket. Then you get a commercial ticket and you still have - from a practical standpoint - many of the same limitations.

I guess the part that bugs me is that there is absolutely nothing illegal about doing the same things in a car - even though there are taxis, limos and other "charter" type services which can be done with a road-vehicle as opposed to an aircraft.

It's annoying. But I guess that's part of the learning process.
It is a pretty big misconception.
 
Top