Video: F-14 vs Mig dogfight

[Hacker15e]

I should have prefaced my question with a previous poster's comment about the F-14 and the RIO/WSO having release authority. Good to know the back seater isn't considered unworthy.

@ryan1234 or @hook_dupin are more qualified to answer about how things are currently (I've been away from the Strike sine 2009), but in my experience the F-15E community has the most "equality" in terms of knowledge, capability, and respect between pilots and WSOs of anywhere in the military flying community.

 

[MikeD]

If there was one jet that didn't have a WSO, but needed one, it was the 117.

In the highly-automated partial-glass F-117A, the Sensor Display system for Nav/Attack is one SA-sucking piece of equipment. When training stateside, I'd regularly be on autopilot (required to be) during the 5 minute final attack runs, and being single-pilot, Id have to have my head buried in the display to find and refine my target for the bomb run, including tracking the weapon to the target. All with F-117A hurtling along at .90M and changing altitudes on it's own in a block with no Mk1 eyeballs scanning anything outside on a VMC day/night for traffic, etc. Granted, most of the time I was in Class A, but not always. A mission necessity, but I consider myself lucky not to have had a near-miss at least, much less a midair, during all the times I did those missions in 3 yrs of flying the thing. Especially during the times when our simulated targets were located in Terminal Areas, such as ABQ, ELP, PHX, or TUS.

God help you if you had to go into manual attack. Most guys didn't train for it (most of our guys came from the F-15C community anyway, so they were newbies to air-ground anyway), so most guys didn't do it. Me and a handful of A-10 guys we had there played around with manually flying while doing all of the above, and you damn near needed 4 arms to do it, with al the juggling going on between flying the wobbly jet and managing the target search/track/lock and weapon release. We had a standby pipper, and most people only brought it up in the HUD to remind them when they were cross feeding fuel.

So yes, if there was one plane that seriously needed a WSO, it was the F-117. Our Wing only had one Navigator-rated guy assigned to the entire Wing, and he worked in combat plans as an EWO.

 

[///AMG]

I should have prefaced my question with a previous poster's comment about the F-14 and the RIO/WSO having release authority. Good to know the back seater isn't considered unworthy.

I'd guess I was that "previous poster" and that was not my intent. It just is what it is, Navy or USAF alike. In my previous life, I was in hindsight a bit of a WSO hater (every single seat guy is, whether they admit it or not)……..however I have come to know, fly with, and appreciate some really spectacular WSO's who are worth every pound they offset in fuel. So no disrespect meant.

 

[Hacker15e]

In my previous life, I was in hindsight a bit of a WSO hater (every single seat guy is, whether they admit it or not).

There is a lot of WSO-hating in the AF fighter community, but I've seen it the most vehemently out of Navy guys. On my first tour in the Strike, I had a pair of Navy Hornet guys walk out of an ACM debrief because the lead WSO was going to be drawing of the lines (we didn't have ACMI pods) of the fights, and they said that it would be a total waste of their time to watch a back-seater do that.

Most WSO-hating by single seat guys is based out of ignorance about the capabilities of a good 'pitter (and what having an extra brain, eyes, and ears brings to the fight) and a very misplaced sense of bravado about "doing it all yourself".

All that being said...I have flown with numerous WSOs who were SA-sucking and detrimental to the conduct of the mission based on a host of factors. This is no different than the CRM challenges that any multi-person crew faces -- one weak swimmer can drag the entire boat down, and the other guys have to swim twice as hard just to keep from drowning, and that's true regardless of which seat the SA-sucker is sitting in. I bet every WSO has an eye-popping story about some ass-clown pilot that nearly killed them at some point.

 

[Vector]

All around good info. Thanks on the perspective.

 

[derg]

Who has two hands and flew with one of the F-14 pilots in the video?

This guy.

As long as it's "Music" and not someone else.

 

[ryan1234]

I should have prefaced my question with a previous poster's comment about the F-14 and the RIO/WSO having release authority. Good to know the back seater isn't considered unworthy.

Obviously I'm not the one to speak about the F-14... The front seaters in the Strike Eagle generally get the "cleared to release" call from the back seat. Mainly what that means is "We've got the target area doped and I know who's who in the zoo down there". There are other types of missions where the back seater physically has a consent switch for the front seater to drop.

 

[ryan1234]

Yup, a button that I have yet to see actually used, despite a lot of folks in the Union that have tried to advance that idea many times.

Is that an official statement?

I'm sure you've never seen WSOs land, hang on the boom, fight BFM

 

[MikeD]

Is that an official statement?

I'm sure you've never seen WSOs land, hang on the boom, fight BFM

How's the visibility forward from the back seat?

I remember when flying in the F-4E it sucked. And in the F-4G it was non-existant. In fact, the F-4G was considered single pilot, and on an instrument checkride, had to be chased by another jet.

 

[Hacker15e]

How's the visibility forward from the back seat?

I remember when flying in the F-4E it sucked. And in the F-4G it was non-existant. In fact, the F-4G was considered single pilot, and on an instrument checkride, had to be chased by another jet.

I could land from the back seat of the F-15E fine, there's plenty to see at 10 and 2. Obviously it doesn't have the huge obnoxious canopy frame that the Rhino does there. It isn't like trying to land from the back seat of a T-6 (the real T-6, not the Pilatus turboprop...).

I've dropped CDIP (computed pipper) bombs from the back seat, too, by using the 6" display to show the HUD when on final. Unfortunately, the HUD symbology on the HUD repeater isn't overlaid with the camera video as precisely as what is actually in the real HUD, so accurate bombing isn't very easy.

 

[ryan1234]

How's the visibility forward from the back seat?

I remember when flying in the F-4E it sucked. And in the F-4G it was non-existant. In fact, the F-4G was considered single pilot, and on an instrument checkride, had to be chased by another jet.

It's not too bad at all, especially if you raise your seat all the way.... although the intake ramps kind of hinder a good view of the ground sometimes. Landing is similar to landing a J-3 on straight floats from the back seat.... at 170 knots. The back seat is pretty roomy, the notable exception is the stick travel. Usually when running the flight control bits on the ground, the back seater has to put his legs over the ejection seat handles, lest you thumped right in the junk. It sounds easy, but in the poopie suits with a g-suit, a survival vest, CSEL, etc it takes a little extra effort. The front seat posture and visibility is a lot better looking out the side of the aircraft.

Speaking of F-4s... I just saw a couple of Greek F-4s doing split pop attacks on some small islands between Turkey and Greece... pretty cool to see them operationally.

 

[MikeD]

The F-4s were cool to fly too. Just the pit really is a pit in the back. Especially the G model.

 

[///AMG]

Speaking of F-4s... I just saw a couple of Greek F-4s doing split pop attacks on some small islands between Turkey and Greece... pretty cool to see them operationally.

I got to fly a little with them while on deployment, and it was cool to watch. While the cockpit is quite updated compared to an F-4E or anything the USAF/USN/USMC flew, they are still very old school when it comes to flying.

@hacker……that is totally unseat. I don't care who they were, that is just incredibly unprofessional and hopefully not what our community as a whole shows you when we work together. Let alone the fact that our WSO's do debrief BFM in the standard (what you would refer to as) MQT and/or upgrade syllabus. I guess it doesn't surprise me that a new single seat VFA guy might not know this, but if they had ever been on deployment, they would have been familiar with how that side of the house runs its program.

 

[Lawman]

The WSO/Pilot hate actually exists in the 64 community thought most people don't realize it is going on.

A model the helicopter was flat out different from seat to seat. New guys grew up as a gunner and while you could fly up there you were 90% gunner 10% pilot and when you excelled and showed your stuff you went to the back seat and made PC.

D model the cockpit is virtually interchanged except the front seater has the controls for Hellfire guidance and searching for targets. Other than that you can do everything from either. So that leads to jack of all trades no in depth specialized early learning.

Now the guys adding stuff at Boeing are hard up about going to a pilot-WSO model because they just keep putting more crap that front seat can do. (Controlling drones, data feeds, etc). But the old school of guys is saying meh you can be an expert at everything because I say so.

There is a small cadre of people and I'm in it that agree with Boeing but if you bring it up you're basically shouted down as a heretic. Fact of the matter is most of the pilots I know don't have half the ability in the front seat the old guys or guys progressed like me front seat only in the D get because of that consistent exposure. So then when they get PC and get paired with a crappy gunner because the big chair in back is all they want to do they can't troubleshoot anything and you end up with two idiots instead of one.

 

[chrisreedrules]

Who has two hands and flew with one of the F-14 pilots in the video?

This guy.

As long as it's "Music" and not someone else.

I'm such a mil aviation nerd I'd probably come off like ole Randy if I flew with him.

 

[derg]

I'm such a mil aviation nerd I'd probably come off like ole Randy if I flew with him.

Yeah, he was a pretty humble guy. Talked about getting scared poopless and training taking over.

Fear is one thing that we tend to leave out of the equation when we're sitting here, safely, on the ground looking at videos.

 

[Cruise]

So, forgive me for being uninformed, but how is the determination made on what seat you're sitting in? Obviously there is different training involved for the respective seats. Once assigned to the back seat, are you forevermore relegated to back seat duties? Is there potential to move to the front seat in the future should you desire it? Conversely, not that you'd want to do so, but can you move from front seat to back?

Thanks for the education!

 

[MikeD]

So, forgive me for being uninformed, but how is the determination made on what seat you're sitting in? Obviously there is different training involved for the respective seats. Once assigned to the back seat, are you forevermore relegated to back seat duties? Is there potential to move to the front seat in the future should you desire it? Conversely, not that you'd want to do so, but can you move from front seat to back?

Thanks for the education!

They're two separate jobs completely. In the USN, Aviator and Naval Flight Officer (non-pilot officer aircrewmember, in various roles), and go through separate initial training pipelines. In the USAF, pilot and Navigator (who is either a Weapons Systems Officer or Electronic Warfare Officer, or other role, depending on airframe).

Only in the Army, are there two pilots in the Apache. The fighters mentioned have one pilot and one NFO/Navigator. The pilot flies, the Nav manages the weapons systems.

That's the basics.

 

[///AMG]

On the Navy side, as an NFO (or in generic terms, a backseater) you can apply for pilot training after your first operational tour….ie you went through NFO flight school, Fleet Replacement Squadron or FRS (where you learn to fly your operational aircraft), as well as a ~3 year operational tour. So this puts most folks around the 5 year mark or so. You apply to a board, and if selected, go back, all the way through pilot flight school, back through the FRS, and back to another operational squadron. It has significant career implications, often negative ones, based on undesirable career "timing". I've known a couple, and in my opinion, it is not a really great program. Though some are more capable than others, in general, they are just too inexperienced when it comes to being a pilot for how senior they are by that point, and more often than not, they are the guys you don't want flying on your wing. I think the AF might be a bit different, because their flight training schedule is so much more efficient, thus a guy in a similar scenario isn't quite as senior when they get back to an operational unit as a newly minted pilot. For me, as a pilot, it took 2 years to get through flight training, almost another 2 years to get through the FRS, so I was an O-3 basically by the time I got to my first operational squadron. This is pretty common in the USN/USMC. NFO flight training varies a lot, from an absolute minimum in the P-3/P-8 community of somewhere south of 6 months to wings, to about a year/year and a half for EA-18G or F/A-18F. Their time in the FRS is similar to that of pilots. So very long road to a small house, on the Navy side, the time to train is mind boggling for an NFO->pilot transition.

 

[PositionAndHold]

They're two separate jobs completely. In the USN, Aviator and Naval Flight Officer (non-pilot officer aircrewmember, in various roles), and go through separate initial training pipelines. In the USAF, pilot and Navigator (who is either a Weapons Systems Officer or Electronic Warfare Officer, or other role, depending on airframe).

Only in the Army, are there two pilots in the Apache. The fighters mentioned have one pilot and one NFO/Navigator. The pilot flies, the Nav manages the weapons systems.

That's the basics.

Let's not forget about the Marines in the Cobra's. They get can get all testy. I only say it because one of my good buddies from high school is getting ready to retire out of em.