Thoughts and opinions on career change pilots?

[MikeD]

The pilots who don’t really need the job at all, just doing it for something to do or it’s mildly interesting, and the paycheck is merely some nice extra pocket cash. Those are the ones I’ve seen who are the don’t care types.

During the lost decade, these guys at the regionals would piss a lot of people off when they were there.

 

[Skåning]

The second career guys, I include military in that, can be interesting to chat with. Having something other than aviation in their background to talk about. Idiots will find their way anywhere, whether they started late or not.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Not all "career changers" should be lumped into the same basket.

I guess a more basic question, how are we defining a "career changer?"

Someone that has been working in GA for 25 years that takes a part 121 job? Someone that retires from military flying and does the same? Someone that only started flying at 45?

My personal definition of career change would be when more of my income is coming from flying than it is from something else.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

The pilots who don’t really need the job at all, just doing it for something to do or it’s mildly interesting, and the paycheck is merely some nice extra pocket cash. Those are the ones I’ve seen who are the don’t care types.

During the lost decade, these guys at the regionals would piss a lot of people off when they were there.

On the other side of the coin, they tend to own some pretty nice airplanes and boats.

 

[MikeD]

I guess a more basic question, how are we defining a "career changer?"

Someone that has been working in GA for 25 years that takes a part 121 job? Someone that retires from military flying and does the same? Someone that only started flying at 45?

My personal definition of career change would be when more of my income is coming from flying than it is from something else.

I think the general definition is someone from completely outside of aviation, coming into aviation. Thats my interpretation, although it seems the interpretation is wider than that with some people.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I guess a more basic question, how are we defining a "career changer?"

Someone that has been working in GA for 25 years that takes a part 121 job? Someone that retires from military flying and does the same? Someone that only started flying at 45?

My personal definition of career change would be when more of my income is coming from flying than it is from something else.

To me it’s someone who has only recently gotten involved in aviation.

 

[DE727UPS]

I think of a career changer as one who maybe had a PPL and a good job but got burned out in their 40's. They always wanted to be a commercial pilot but couldn't afford it when they were younger and then had kids. Then they decide to pursue the career almost from scratch.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

As a mid-life career changer, some recent comments have me curious about the outside view of pilots that have switched over. Being on the inside of that group, I don’t have the perspective that y’all might have.


“…The aviation industry would be MUCH better with out the second career idiots coming over and talking about how they never have to work a day in their life nonsense.”

“…I've seen second career types come through aviation plenty of times and the only thing positive about them is that they retire quickly and go away. They are second as the worst person to work with only to trust funders.”

If you specifically want me to expand on why I feel that way it is that primarily the second career types tend to use their prior job experience and role as a comparator to their aviation job. For example:

The new captain at XOJET who was former Navy enlisted. He asked me to meet him downstairs at 8AM for our flight. I showed up at 8AM and the dude starts yelling about how in the Navy, if you weren't 5 minutes early you were five minutes late. This wasn't standard practice for a charter flying operation. We had a rental car and while it wasn't good to be late, showing up at show time was normal. Currently I will show 5 minutes early because our FAs are under extreme scrutiny for on time performance and I don't want to be perceived as the reason they arrived late at the gate. This guy was basically taking a cultural practice from his former job and taking it out on me.

Typically people who come from backgrounds like the trades will also make comparisons like "this sure beats digging a hole in the ground for a living" or some other kind of nonsense. Yes. I worked very hard to get here so I didn't have to dig a hole in the ground. I too worked in the trades and didn't want to be a part of that. So I left for a better career, aviation. That is the point. This is just sort of borderline annoying but it gets really bad during contract negotiations. The second career trade workers will point out how the pilot group is spoiled, how the economy is tanking or how our job isn't that hard and we should take XYZ deal. These types will shout over other lifetime pilots on internal message boards to push their point of view that comes from another industry. I've come to realize that my union protects me from these types of pilots not just management. At least most of the time.

In a non union environment these types will try to create a better deal for themselves with management. I've witnessed it many times. They will offer to work for less etc. In other words they will bring the industry down to fit their needs. This is second only to trust funders who have offered to go to training without pay and fly a new type of aircraft without a pay raise. In my case undoing weeks of negotiation with management. Second career types tend to do this as well but not to as great of an extent.

Flying wise I find the second career types to sometimes have a false confidence and low skill. Not always. Former flying jobs don't really count. Someone switching from charter to the airlines may have an initial unfamiliarity with 121 ops but be fine in short order and the flying part is still second nature. In my experience these types come from the trades or ATC. I did one trip with a contractor in Napa who was terrifying to fly with. I never flew with him again. A real estate agent was about the same but was at least coachable. They will typically lead with how their lack of experience doesn't matter or how their former experience makes them better at their current role. In general they will be on the lower skill spectrum of pilot and will require more monitoring but would be the last to be open to that role.

 

[Toobdrvr]

Mostly positive, but I will add my personal "pet peeve":

Recently retired/separated military pilots who are still "full-time" guard/reserve, and treat their Air Line job as a hobby. I'd say about 1/2 of those I've experienced "phone it in" while at work, and make it pretty clear they'd rather be somewhere else. Any time they see me cleaning up a mess they made (often), they often admit that they're not really focused on this, and usually interject something about how much cooler their other job is...

Like I said, only a few. Mostly good guys/gals. But if you don't want to be here...?

 

[word302]

If you specifically want me to expand on why I feel that way it is that primarily the second career types tend to use their prior job experience and role as a comparator to their aviation job. For example:

The new captain at XOJET who was former Navy enlisted. He asked me to meet him downstairs at 8AM for our flight. I showed up at 8AM and the dude starts yelling about how in the Navy, if you weren't 5 minutes early you were five minutes late. This wasn't standard practice for a charter flying operation. We had a rental car and while it wasn't good to be late, showing up at show time was normal. Currently I will show 5 minutes early because our FAs are under extreme scrutiny for on time performance and I don't want to be perceived as the reason they arrived late at the gate. This guy was basically taking a cultural practice from his former job and taking it out on me.

Typically people who come from backgrounds like the trades will also make comparisons like "this sure beats digging a hole in the ground for a living" or some other kind of nonsense. Yes. I worked very hard to get here so I didn't have to dig a hole in the ground. I too worked in the trades and didn't want to be a part of that. So I left for a better career, aviation. That is the point. This is just sort of borderline annoying but it gets really bad during contract negotiations. The second career trade workers will point out how the pilot group is spoiled, how the economy is tanking or how our job isn't that hard and we should take XYZ deal. These types will shout over other lifetime pilots on internal message boards to push their point of view that comes from another industry. I've come to realize that my union protects me from these types of pilots not just management. At least most of the time.

In a non union environment these types will try to create a better deal for themselves with management. I've witnessed it many times. They will offer to work for less etc. In other words they will bring the industry down to fit their needs. This is second only to trust funders who have offered to go to training without pay and fly a new type of aircraft without a pay raise. In my case undoing weeks of negotiation with management. Second career types tend to do this as well but not to as great of an extent.

Flying wise I find the second career types to sometimes have a false confidence and low skill. Not always. Former flying jobs don't really count. Someone switching from charter to the airlines may have an initial unfamiliarity with 121 ops but be fine in short order and the flying part is still second nature. In my experience these types come from the trades or ATC. I did one trip with a contractor in Napa who was terrifying to fly with. I never flew with him again. A real estate agent was about the same but was at least coachable. They will typically lead with how their lack of experience doesn't matter or how their former experience makes them better at their current role. In general they will be on the lower skill spectrum of pilot and will require more monitoring but would be the last to be open to that role.

So at what point do us career changers get to be graced with respect from you? I've been doing this professionally for over a decade now. I led the union drive at Skywest for over 5 years. In over 7 years at OO I never voted yes for a pay package because they were all sub-standard with 0 QOL enhancements. Tell me more about how I'm dragging you down. The reality is the only way you know how to combat someone with a different perspective than you is to get emotional/dramatic, pull past interactions far out of context, and personally attack someone's character or background. To be perfectly honest I had to go search the LASA page for this statement you claim I made and it's so laughable. Would you like me to post a screenshot of the conversation? I'm guessing not.

 

[killbilly]

Much like @SteveC, I, too, am/was a mid-life career changer.

I have some thoughts here. I've written several drafts of this and decided that there was too much so I'll just start with this and see how the thread goes. I don't know who made the initial remarks Steve is quoting.

Quite a few of the career changers I've met have been guys who had been quite successful in the prior life, and now wanted to pursue a passion that was neither practical nor feasible at another time in life. Some of them have been great, humble, grounded individuals, and others have been hyper-type-A-bros with hefty dollops of arrogance and entitlement that I didn't care to know beyond the pairing we were on. My sample size is relatively small with only 2.5 years in the 121 world, but I had plenty of students when I was instructing who were in the changer camp and they mostly supported my conclusions:

The fact that they are career changers is completely incidental.

I've more to say but lets see how the thread unfolds.

 

[Gonzo]

If you specifically want me to expand on why I feel that way it is that primarily the second career types tend to use their prior job experience and role as a comparator to their aviation job. For example:

The new captain at XOJET who was former Navy enlisted. He asked me to meet him downstairs at 8AM for our flight. I showed up at 8AM and the dude starts yelling about how in the Navy, if you weren't 5 minutes early you were five minutes late. This wasn't standard practice for a charter flying operation. We had a rental car and while it wasn't good to be late, showing up at show time was normal. Currently I will show 5 minutes early because our FAs are under extreme scrutiny for on time performance and I don't want to be perceived as the reason they arrived late at the gate. This guy was basically taking a cultural practice from his former job and taking it out on me.

Typically people who come from backgrounds like the trades will also make comparisons like "this sure beats digging a hole in the ground for a living" or some other kind of nonsense. Yes. I worked very hard to get here so I didn't have to dig a hole in the ground. I too worked in the trades and didn't want to be a part of that. So I left for a better career, aviation. That is the point. This is just sort of borderline annoying but it gets really bad during contract negotiations. The second career trade workers will point out how the pilot group is spoiled, how the economy is tanking or how our job isn't that hard and we should take XYZ deal. These types will shout over other lifetime pilots on internal message boards to push their point of view that comes from another industry. I've come to realize that my union protects me from these types of pilots not just management. At least most of the time.

In a non union environment these types will try to create a better deal for themselves with management. I've witnessed it many times. They will offer to work for less etc. In other words they will bring the industry down to fit their needs. This is second only to trust funders who have offered to go to training without pay and fly a new type of aircraft without a pay raise. In my case undoing weeks of negotiation with management. Second career types tend to do this as well but not to as great of an extent.

Flying wise I find the second career types to sometimes have a false confidence and low skill. Not always. Former flying jobs don't really count. Someone switching from charter to the airlines may have an initial unfamiliarity with 121 ops but be fine in short order and the flying part is still second nature. In my experience these types come from the trades or ATC. I did one trip with a contractor in Napa who was terrifying to fly with. I never flew with him again. A real estate agent was about the same but was at least coachable. They will typically lead with how their lack of experience doesn't matter or how their former experience makes them better at their current role. In general they will be on the lower skill spectrum of pilot and will require more monitoring but would be the last to be open to that role.

I believe you over think and read into things to much. I bet if I ask 50 pilots what a 8 am show times means I would get no fewer than 5 different answers. And as far as “it bets digging a hole for a living” I say that and mean it as I am very happy now and am OK with waiting for a good deal.
A lot of second career guys/girls have now been doing it for 15+ years, and have seen more 3 hour orals for PCs than you or most people with less time will ever. When are they just pilots and not second career pilots.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

So at what point do us career changers get to be graced with respect from you? I've been doing this professionally for over a decade now. I led the union drive at Skywest for over 5 years. In over 7 years at OO I never voted yes for a pay package because they were all sub-standard with 0 QOL enhancements. Tell me more about how I'm dragging you down. The reality is the only way you know how to combat someone with a different perspective than you is to get emotional/dramatic, pull past interactions far out of context, and personally attack someone's character or background. To be perfectly honest I had to go search the LASA page for this statement you claim I made and it's so laughable. Would you like me to post a screenshot of the conversation? I'm guessing not.

Sounds to me like you should look in the mirror about the taking it personally thing. If you don't like what I think about a general group of people be the stand out person that isn't screaming about how the economy will crash, right before every market hit an all time high. Only one year until the next contract drive starts and you can prove me wrong.

 

[word302]

Sounds to me like you should look in the mirror about the taking it personally thing. If you don't like what I think about a general group of people be the stand out person that isn't screaming about how the economy will crash, right before every market hit an all time high. Only one year until the next contract drive starts and you can prove me wrong.

There you go making stuff up again.

 

[podrick]

The new captain at XOJET who was former Navy enlisted. He asked me to meet him downstairs at 8AM for our flight. I showed up at 8AM and the dude starts yelling about how in the Navy, if you weren't 5 minutes early you were five minutes late.

How long ago was this? I’ll just about guarantee said captain forgot about this by the end of the trip.

I’d recommend some introspection on why such small interpersonal conflicts stick with you so much, it’s something that a great therapist can help with, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

Also this is a textbook example of confirmation bias. The examples you give can and do happen with pilots of any background, but you’re only focusing on the aspect that connects them all.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Will you two just bang already?

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I showed up at 8AM and the dude starts yelling about how in the Navy, if you weren't 5 minutes early you were five minutes late.

The last time someone said that to me, I asked if I could leave wherever I was supposed to be 5 minutes early for now on to be able to do so. In hindsight, it was not the best thing to say. Anyway, always struck me as a bad way to say that punctuality is important. Or a mild form of hazing. Or both.

 

[luke3]

I guess I fall into the label of career changer, even though by now I've been flying for longer than I was an engineer. It's given me perspective when dealing with issues. Yes this job is absolutely better than sitting in a cubicle, as cliche' and annoying as it sounds. What that means is I'm not going to be a curmudgeon at work, get mad at every small inconvenience I encounter, and keep my cool when the operation turns into a dumpster fire. I'm also not going to spend the entire trip complaining about petty • because I showed up to have a good time. That doesn't mean I won't fight to make things better in our next contract cycle, protect the implementation of our current contract, and hold the line on the key items. I very much need this job and I need it to be good for the next 30 years. It also doesn't mean I will chug company kool aid. If anything my time in corporate America solidified the concept that corporations see us as just a number on a balance sheet and we should see them as simply a source of income. At least in this line of work I get to have fun every once in a while too.

The fact that I get to do what I've always wanted and that my current self image matches what I imagined becoming when I was a little kid means that I have no excuse to be anything but gracious when I show up to work. Even more so because by aviation standards I've had a pretty smooth run up to this point. I see this as one more reason to be pleasant, contrary to popular belief on this forum that those who had an easy career will become raging out of touch •. I literally have nothing to be openly mad about because I've had it good.

The negative traits of apathy, being a company man / pushover, having a certain aspect of your life be your complete identity, wanting to make a quick buck, pulling the ladder up, etc. , that have been mentioned are very much individual traits that you encounter in every industry. I'm almost certain the people in your examples had those traits in their previous career as well and are just bringing them over. It has nothing to do with being career changers specifically.

 

[ASpilot2be]

I think there's a big difference between career changer, and retired career changer.

The retired ones I generally had the most issues with. It was a hobby to them. Not all were like that though.

 

[///AMG]

Mostly positive, but I will add my personal "pet peeve":

Recently retired/separated military pilots who are still "full-time" guard/reserve, and treat their Air Line job as a hobby. I'd say about 1/2 of those I've experienced "phone it in" while at work, and make it pretty clear they'd rather be somewhere else. Any time they see me cleaning up a mess they made (often), they often admit that they're not really focused on this, and usually interject something about how much cooler their other job is...

Like I said, only a few. Mostly good guys/gals. But if you don't want to be here...?

This is kind of disappointing to hear. Although "only a few" contrasts a bit with your previous statement of "1/2". I'd sincerely hope it is the former (or the latter in your words). Not sure what kind of messes they are making, but hopefully not the kind that involve deep cleaning a cockpit?