Retired NWA pilot sums it up.

[surreal1221]

What is that supposed to mean? What kind of training is an airline pilot supposed to learn to better their contracts? Other than walking out the door as a group, how are you going to bring about better pay scales and QOL?

Not too good at metaphors are you?

There is ample negotiation and union / labor education material out there that will better inform the average pilot about the negotiating process, collective bargaining agreements and labor law. Begin to take an active role in your union (or whatever representative body you have). Start TODAY to better inform yourself about the future. I'm glad you're taking up the fight for Trip7, but you either don't understand metaphors or you just don't care to realize that there are ample opportunities to actually put some energy to work improving the profession.

Can't say I know your background, care to enlighten me so I can better tailor the rest of my responses to your rhetorical questions?

 

[derg]

What is that supposed to mean? What kind of training is an airline pilot supposed to learn to better their contracts? Other than walking out the door as a group, how are you going to bring about better pay scales and QOL?

Well, it's learning the fine art of knowing when to shake our fists and also knowing when to shut up and listen. We see it every day on the aviation internet.

There's always that 5% that want to debate me about the MD-90 when there are only two active users with any semi-recent experience on it. BUT the 40% that want to debate the FARs, hell yes, my technical knowledge have atrophied!

 

[thehobbit]

Not too good at metaphors are you?

There is ample negotiation and union / labor education material out there that will better inform the average pilot about the negotiating process, collective bargaining agreements and labor law. Begin to take an active role in your union (or whatever representative body you have). Start TODAY to better inform yourself about the future. I'm glad you're taking up the fight for Trip7, but you either don't understand metaphors or you just don't care to realize that there are ample opportunities to actually put some energy to work improving the profession.

Can't say I know your background, care to enlighten me so I can better tailor the rest of my responses to your rhetorical questions?

How bout instead of saying that theirs ample material available, show it. As far as the second question reread the thread.

 

[surreal1221]

Well, I'm getting the sense I'm feeding a troll.

Nevertheless, show what? Show labor theory that very well may go way above your head? Show the list of labor law and trade unionism textbooks sitting on my bookshelves in my den - perhaps with links to Amazon so you can also purchase them?

Show documents from negotiating committee strategy sessions for airline contracts over the past two decades?

Not.

My answers are broad for a reason and they should have gotten the point across. My emphasis is to get involved NOW before the war begins - uh oh another metaphor.

Which page is your biography on?

 

[Trip7]

Well, I'm getting the sense I'm feeding a troll.

Nevertheless, show what? Show labor theory that very well may go way above your head? Show the list of labor law and trade unionism textbooks sitting on my bookshelves in my den - perhaps with links to Amazon so you can also purchase them?

Show documents from negotiating committee strategy sessions for airline contracts over the past two decades?

Not.

My answers are broad for a reason and they should have gotten the point across. My emphasis is to get involved NOW before the war begins - uh oh another metaphor.

Which page is your biography on?

You're giving a politicians answer by going sweeping right around his answer. He's asking you Mr. "Get Involved" how exactly are you going to improve the profession? What exactly are you doing "in preparation for the war"? You love to preach and preach about theoritical union practices but when you are asked a direct questions you start using methapors like this is Dead Poets Society. Are you able to have an intelligent conversation about PBS at ASA besides "just say no"?

IMO, in this current economic environment it will be nearly impossible to improve anything at the regional. We'll be doing a great job just to hang onto what we currently have(See XJET concessions). With whipsaw being a primary weapon of the legacy management supply and demand economics is the only leverage regional pilots will have. No one is walking off the job due to horrible conditions and there are hundreds if not thousands of CFIs banging on the shut and locked doors of regional HRs.

You ask what am I doing to contribute? I am paying my ALPA dues to support the elected union officials that are working very to ASA a better place. They are doing an excellent job making sure the contract is complied with by the company, which I believe is the best useful for the union at the regional level. Its pretty cool in the emails when something has come up in regards to possible contract violation and they write that "Captain XXX has already started working on this" When it comes to increasing regional payrates though(I have a much different opinion when it comes to Legacy payrate negoiation), I believe supply and demand will have a much bigger impact than negoiation tactics, especially of the FO payscale.

 

[surreal1221]

You're giving a politicians answer by going sweeping right around his answer. He's asking you Mr. "Get Involved" how exactly are you going to improve the profession? What exactly are you doing "in preparation for the war"? You love to preach and preach about theoretical union practices but when you are asked a direct questions you start using metaphors like this is Dead Poets Society. Are you able to have an intelligent conversation about PBS at ASA besides "just say no"?

Then it looks like we're reading two different threads.

I don't see any question from him asking me what I am doing. Care to point it out?

I also fixed a couple screws up in the above post.

Now, for the rest of your rant.

Since there was no direct question asked of me, I didn't provide a direct answer.

Yes, I am able to have an intelligent discussion over the merits of PBS at our company. I have on many occasions, and at a couple LEC meetings as well, along with discussing it directly with a number of status representatives and our MEC. Now, discussing those merits online with a bunch of people who I don't know where they work, who they work for, or where the information may end up - no thanks. To that end, I keep my comments on PBS (at least here) extremely short and to the point, emphasizing the increase in job losses at our company. That alone should be more than enough ammunition to vote no. If a multitude of conditions were met (which I'm not stating here - for the above reasons) I wouldn't have any problem voting yes, but I'm afraid the laziness related to being active in our union will simply allow pilots to vote yes for anything handed to them because our union leadership has been doing a less than stellar job in providing the negative aspects of PBS to the pilot group.

If you want to get together and have a drink one of these evenings I'll be more than happy to discuss anything you'd like.

 

[Socal321]

I'm extremely grateful to be in the position I am at 23 yrs old with this low of time in one of the worst economic downturns in US history.

So yes, I'm happy as a pig

Downward spiral has been happening since 1984? What about the huge contracts that United and Delta signed in what..2000 was it? The one when 777 Capts were making 300something an hr

That right there is the problem. It's called SJS, low time indoctrination. Have you looked at the last hiring waves where some airlines were even by passing real interviews? If you think that the regionals will up the pay because of supply and demand, you are wrong. They will just lower their mins. They know that there will be plenty of 23 year olds fresh out of college or some pilot mill that will do anything to get on to a CRJ700/900 FO seat. And be happy as a pig while doing it because they know that they don't belong there. Unless we change the attitude of the pilots coming in, it will be hopeless. A good example of this is Mesa. Everyone knows it's probably the worst you can do as an airline and their pilots, by the last TA are bottom feeders as well. Why? It's because that is who that particular airline wants to hire and indoctrinate. It's very safe to say that a good percentage of us flying for the airlines would have never gone in it had we known what was in store for us. I personally love flying but I've talked to plenty of people that would do something else if they had the chance.

The good news is that supply will shrink this time because pilots will not be able to train in the first place, that is different, I don't think we've had that any other time in U.S since they're saying this is the worst economy we've had in 50 years. I would be curious to how that's going to go in the future. Still that won't solve anything unless they know that they will not make it to a major airline seat for a long time, quite possibly never, and will have to suffer through the regionals. People need to be educated.

 

[Trip7]

That right there is the problem. It's called SJS, low time indoctrination. Have you looked at the last hiring waves where some airlines were even by passing real interviews? If you think that the regionals will up the pay because of supply and demand, you are wrong. They will just lower their mins. They know that there will be plenty of 23 year olds fresh out of college or some pilot mill that will do anything to get on to a CRJ700/900 FO seat. And be happy as a pig while doing it because they know that they don't belong there. Unless we change the attitude of the pilots coming in, it will be hopeless. A good example of this is Mesa. Everyone knows it's probably the worst you can do as an airline and their pilots, by the last TA are bottom feeders as well. Why? It's because that is who that particular airline wants to hire and indoctrinate. It's very safe to say that a good percentage of us flying for the airlines would have never gone in it had we known what was in store for us. I personally love flying but I've talked to plenty of people that would do something else if they had the chance.

The good news is that supply will shrink this time because pilots will not be able to train in the first place, that is different, I don't think we've had that any other time in U.S since they're saying this is the worst economy we've had in 50 years. I would be curious to how that's going to go in the future. Still that won't solve anything unless they know that they will not make it to a major airline seat for a long time, quite possibly never, and will have to suffer through the regionals. People need to be educated.

Completely disagree on your 'they will just lower mins' theory. That started to fail after the shortage got worse a couple years ago. Like I said before, Comair offered to raise 1st yr pay to match 2nd. PNCL offered a band aid fix to FO rates. The MECs refused because they knew they had leverage. Other regionals started poaching with sign on bonuses. Age 65 and gas prices killed all that. Wait,delayed would be a better word...

 

[Stone Cold]

Completely disagree on your 'they will just lower mins' theory. That started to fail after the shortage got worse a couple years ago. Like I said before, Comair offered to raise 1st yr pay to match 2nd. PNCL offered a band aid fix to FO rates. The MECs refused because they knew they had leverage. Other regionals started poaching with sign on bonuses. Age 65 and gas prices killed all that. Wait,delayed would be a better word...

LOL. There never has been and never will be a true pilot shortage in the US. The closest we came was in the 60's I believe it was when they were waiting for people to finish their Comms and hiring them into the Majors. That will never happen again. The only reason that happened then was because they could ride side saddle for a few years and then come up the ranks.

There are way too many starry-eyed kids who dream of the view at 30,000'. There will always be somebody who has the money to do it. They will never get out of debt because of it, but if Riddle can convince people to take out 100K-150K in loans to get on at a regional, then the doom is predicted for your "leverage".

 

[jynxyjoe]

Completely disagree on your 'they will just lower mins' theory. That started to fail after the shortage got worse a couple years ago. Like I said before, Comair offered to raise 1st yr pay to match 2nd. PNCL offered a band aid fix to FO rates. The MECs refused because they knew they had leverage. Other regionals started poaching with sign on bonuses. Age 65 and gas prices killed all that. Wait,delayed would be a better word...

Oh boy. That is the worst interpretation of that move by management I've ever read. My eyes are burning a little.

 

[Socal321]

Completely disagree on your 'they will just lower mins' theory. That started to fail after the shortage got worse a couple years ago. Like I said before, Comair offered to raise 1st yr pay to match 2nd. PNCL offered a band aid fix to FO rates. The MECs refused because they knew they had leverage. Other regionals started poaching with sign on bonuses. Age 65 and gas prices killed all that. Wait,delayed would be a better word...

You don't have to agree with me on that because that is what happened during the last wave. That is how you and I are sitting in an RJ at 1000 hours or a few hundred hours at the time of class. That is not supposed to happen. Airlines will never raise any salary or contractual benefits until they've exhausted the very last starry eyed 200 hour SJS pilot or until simply there are zero pilots showing up to class. And I don't consider "band aid" first year FO rates and preferential domicile assignments any real change. That is going to take much longer.

 

[Trip7]

Airlines will never raise any salary or contractual benefits until they've exhausted the very last starry eyed 200 hour SJS pilot or until simply there are zero pilots showing up to class. And I don't consider "band aid" first year FO rates and preferential domicile assignments any real change. That is going to take much longer.

You realize you just contradicted yourself pretty badly? You said airlines will not raise ANY salary til the 200 hr guys are gone and then went on to say a band aid fix such as raising 1st yr pay to 2nd yr pay isnt change? Sorry you have me lost....

 

[surreal1221]

You realize you just contradicted yourself pretty badly? You said airlines will not raise ANY salary til the 200 hr guys are gone and then went on to say a band aid fix such as raising 1st yr pay to 2nd yr pay isnt change? Sorry you have me lost....

We must be reading two different posts.

1) He says the companies won't have any reason to increase wages until they evaporate all the 200 hour kiddies who want to fly for a living (aka slave themselves out)

2) He doesn't agree with the band-aid fixes [in reality, there never have been any band-aid fixes, just some notion of them, but never executed by the companies we all fly for].

On that note, if a company is going to increase 1st year pay to 2nd year pay for FOs, ALL rates must be increased by the same % increase that they would generate. Which is why none of these companies managed to execute any of these so called band-aid fixes. So, now, can we forget this notion of band-aid fixes? They're as mythical as the Greek gods.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I do that if it's a long flight, I'm bored and my FO is a seat warmer with the conversational skills of a turnip. We've still got WorldFlight.....for now. The Delta printers jack it up, though. Huge, 3 inch spaces spread throughout the release. Makes what is normally a long, long release even longer and harder to get info out of. They keep teasing us with going to the Aerodata system like the -900 guys have (which means no more waiting for numbers to take off), but I think they're in a bidding war to get cheap software again.....

Trust me, you don't want Aerodata. It doesn't compare to WorldFlight. In fact, WorldFlight is probably the only thing I miss about Pinch-a-nickel.

The downward spiral has been going strong since about 1984 when b-scale wages first showed up, and I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon.

Downward spiral has been happening since 1984? What about the huge contracts that United and Delta signed in what..2000 was it? The one when 777 Capts were making 300something an hr

John, Marcus is right on this one. The B-Scale came to an end in the late '90s, and the most expensive pilot contracts in world history were signed with Northwest, USAirways, United, and Delta. There was a period where the downward spiral stopped. We'll get back there again. In fact, I think we're starting the upswing now.

As for a true modern B-Scale, take a look at our crappy pay rates. It's basically a blended B-Scale with the bottom half of the longevity scale getting completely screwed on the Captain's side, and the entire FO longevity scale acting as a pseudo B-Scale. We desperately need to fix it.

You ask what am I doing to contribute? I am paying my ALPA dues to support the elected union officials that are working very to ASA a better place.

Trip7, you know I love ya, but that's BS. Simply paying your dues is not a contribution. Hell, even non-members have to pay agency shop fees that are just about the same as dues. No, contribution is volunteering your time and energy to make things better for your fellow pilots. Surreal has done that (before the furlough, anyway). Join a committee. That's a contribution. You talk all the time about using your travel benefits to go all over the world on your time off. How about sacrificing just one of those days off per month to give back to your profession? That's a contribution

 

[kellwolf]

Trust me, you don't want Aerodata. It doesn't compare to WorldFlight. In fact, WorldFlight is probably the only thing I miss about Pinch-a-nickel.

I'd love to keep it, but it's not sticking around. Delta is nixing the whole thing, so wishing for something that isn't gonna be around in a year or so is kinda fruitless. If we didn't have to deal with load control, I'd have zero complaints about Worldflight.