Is this legal????

cypilot77

Well-Known Member
Here's the case.
A buddy of mine is a CFI somewhere and he asked me something weird that i wasnt sure what to answer. So, in his school there is student who needs 50 hours of cross country before he starts his instrument rating. Obviously he is a private pilot. Now, the chief pilot doesnt trust the student to fly 50 hours solo and he forced the student to fly with a CFI. But, the student refused to do it because of money and he is right in my opinion. Finally the student aggreed to fly with the CFI only and only if he is not paying for instruction. To make the story short, my friend(CFI) is flying with that student, he is getting paid but he is just flying as a safety pilot, meaning he is not giving instruction. The big question is , does he have to sign the student's logbook?
If he signs the logbook, it has to be instruction given and the CFI gets the flight time too but in reality he is not teaching anything. He is just a "passenger".
BUT, since he is flying as a safety pilot, he doesnt really have to sign the logbook. Is it legal not to sign the student's logbook, and still log the flight time in his logbook as safety pilot?
Basically, he flew twice so far, he logged the time in his logbook as safety pilot and the student logged the time by himself. So is it legal? I beleive yes but i need your opinions.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
He is either a passenger or instructor. If he doesn't sign the logbook, and IS providing instruction, he is violating the regs. If he is sitting as a passenger and puts the time in HIS logbook, he is violating the regs, unless the other guy is under the hood. They have to agree that the safety pilot will act as PIC, and the flying pilot will be able to log PIC, via 61.51.

If your friend is getting paid, why not just give him instruction and sign it off as such? The private pilot is still able to log PIC and get the XC time required. It seems win/win from my perspective.

Student not getting charged: :)
Instructor getting paid: :)
Student and Instructor logging legit time: :)

What is wrong with that scenario?
 

jrh

Well-Known Member
What is wrong with that scenario?
I'm a little bothered by the idea that there is a private pilot out there who apparently shouldn't be. Or else an over controlling chief pilot. Must be one or the other.

I'm hoping this student didn't get his private license through the same school that's unwilling to let him fly by himself. If that was the case, the school did a *huge* disservice in training him to substandard criteria.

Even if he's transferring in to a new school and the new school doesn't believe he's up to standards, and therefore doesn't want to rent him a plane, that's fine, but doing this "fly with a safety pilot for 50 hours" stuff is ridiculous. Either rent him a plane by himself, or give him dual for as long as it takes to get him proficient, then cut him loose, but don't do this pseudo-instructing safety pilot stuff.

The whole point of the 50 hours cross country time is to learn and build independence before getting instrument rated. That's not going to happen with an instructor sitting next to him the whole time.

Legal? I'd say yes. A good idea? I don't think so.
 

JLF

Well-Known Member
I'm a little bothered by the idea that there is a private pilot out there who apparently shouldn't be. Or else an over controlling chief pilot. Must be one or the other.

I'm hoping this student didn't get his private license through the same school that's unwilling to let him fly by himself. If that was the case, the school did a *huge* disservice in training him to substandard criteria.

Even if he's transferring in to a new school and the new school doesn't believe he's up to standards, and therefore doesn't want to rent him a plane, that's fine, but doing this "fly with a safety pilot for 50 hours" stuff is ridiculous. Either rent him a plane by himself, or give him dual for as long as it takes to get him proficient, then cut him loose, but don't do this pseudo-instructing safety pilot stuff.

The whole point of the 50 hours cross country time is to learn and build independence before getting instrument rated. That's not going to happen with an instructor sitting next to him the whole time.

Legal? I'd say yes. A good idea? I don't think so.

Exxxxactly! Very well said!
 

XLR99

Well-Known Member
That whole scenario is bizzare! Sounds like they found someone to keep their plane moving and milk him for 50hrs of hobbs time. Why not work on his IR while building the XC time? Or -ding ding ding.....set up a plan for remedial training to get up to whatever standards they don't think he meets right now.
Or say-we don't want you renting because you're going to kill yourself-you really shouldn't be riding a bike, let alone flying our airplane. But again-where did he get his PPL?
Legal? See the other posts. Immoral? Probably....
I'd like to know both sides of the story, this may be a good one.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
Why not work on his IR while building the XC time?
:yeahthat:

I think I have only had two students that started the IR having the XC requirements met. I try to utilize that time as effectively as possible with as many IFR cross countries I can squeeze in. If the student is sharp, I cut them loose to finish the time requirements on their own and save some cash. If not so sharp, I use it all if needed.
 

cypilot77

Well-Known Member
The student had an ICAO license and he never flew in the US. He spent a few hours just to pass a an FAA checkride and that was it.So the chief pilot has a point. I just found out.
 

jrh

Well-Known Member
The student had an ICAO license and he never flew in the US. He spent a few hours just to pass a an FAA checkride and that was it.So the chief pilot has a point. I just found out.
Fair enough. I stand by my original proposal. Give him dual until he's proficient, then cut him loose.
 

JulietBravo

On Call, On Demand
I agree with the above two posts, once he's proficient, let him build some confidence on his own! That's the whole point!!

To go over the safety pilot thing again, NO the CFI does not have to sign the students log book, but the CFI's name has to be in the students logbook and vise versa. However, the whole point of safety pilot is that the PF (Pilot Flying) is under the hood and the safety pilot is watching for traffic. If neither is under the hood, then its NOT legal. What I do at my school sometimes is if a student is interested, I go along, give them little instruction, but I log it as dual given, they log it as dual received, and we both get PIC... its win/win there and its legit!

JB
 

falconvalley

Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Yeah I was under the impression that a safety pilot does in fact need to be in the other PIC's logbook as referenced. I also thought it was ok for a CFI to act merely as a safety pilot and not a CFI. Case in point: if a CFI friend and I go out in a 152 to do some holds, do I need to actually give instruction? Not necessarily, but either role would suffice in this case.
 

BrewMaster

Well-Known Member
If your friend is getting paid, why not just give him instruction and sign it off as such? The private pilot is still able to log PIC and get the XC time required. It seems win/win from my perspective.
That makes the most sense. Although, why IS he a private pilot if he can't be trusted to make a x-country flight? If he has been off that long, then he needs the instruction.

A safety pilot is required to sign the other pilot's logbook, although I've never really heard of a private pilot safety pilot....I guess there can be but it sounds more like instruction to me. If he is giving pointers, tips, help, etc. and he is a CFI, I would call that instruction. If he is a fellow private pilot just helping out then I guess you could call it safety pilot. I think someone should instruct him on one x/c to correct any errors, and let him do the rest on his own. Your buddy should instruct/teach, not babysit a private pilot(who should be able to fly solo x/c).

Now I have a question...could you get paid for being a safety pilot? I don't see anything in Part 119 that allows for compensated safety pilots, but I'm not entirely sure.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
A safety pilot is required to sign the other pilot's logbook,
No he's not. The pilot logging the safety flight has to identify the safety pilot by name (61.51(b)(5)), but the safety pilot doesn't have to sign anything.
although I've never really heard of a private pilot safety pilot
You must lead a sheltered life. It's done all the time, sometimes by 2 instrument students doing "homework"
If he is giving pointers, tips, help, etc. and he is a CFI, I would call that instruction.
If the CFI and the other pilot don't want to consider it instruction and the CFI doesn't endorse it as instruction, it ain't instruction. Like I said in the prior post, I do it all the time.

Now I have a question...could you get paid for being a safety pilot? I don't see anything in Part 119 that allows for compensated safety pilots, but I'm not entirely sure.[/QUOTE]Interesting question. You don't see anything in Part 119 that allows for compensated corporate pilots, do you?

I tried to answer this one once but realized you can come with whatever answer you want to this based on the regs. Best I could come up with was yes for a commercial pilots and for a a private pilot, that they could share the expense of the flight since they were both logging time.
 

BrewMaster

Well-Known Member
Sorry, my dungeon master only gave me 5 minutes on the computer earlier. What I meant to say was two pilots neither of which is under the hood, only 1 can log PIC. There is no safety pilot if the other pilot isn't under the hood(VFR x/c's). If he is a CFI, he is either providing instruction or just helping out, but not a safety pilot.
 

SatelliteBeachPilot

Well-Known Member
Easy Answer:

1) Put the student under the hood for all flights, it will only help

2) Instructor logs dual given & PIC as safety pilot

3) Student comes out with much more simulated hood time, instructor comes out with more dual given/ total time

4) Everyone wins!
 
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