fuel system on SE piston airplanes

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

I've been thinking about buying a single engine airplane for our family, we would need more than 5 seats with a larger payload. So there are a few airplanes that come to mind.
However when i started looking at all these i started thinking about how the fuel system was feeding the engine. And i remembered the PITA of having the change the fuel tank every so often...
I know the regulations under 23 sub E., but what i dont understand is why manufactures did not have a 3rd tank that was gravity fed by the two wing tanks and that one would have two fuel pumps. Then you would be able to have L/R/B.

Any ideas? Or do you know of any "affordable" aircraft (low wing) that have this solution. BE77 had something similar if understand but it is was to small for my purpose.

/Johnny

 

[Roger Roger]

Be a man and get a 4 tanker Cherokee 6.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Why does switching tanks matter?

 

[JeppUpdater]

If you really need six seats - Cherokee Six (300, not 240), Lance, or Saratoga. There's nothing "PITA" about swapping tanks...come on, it's a five second process that involves the torture of (gasp) leaning forward.

I set a timer on the Garmin for every thirty minutes and trade back and forth then. Works good, lasts long time.

Adding a third collector tank and two fuel pumps seems like a solution in need of a problem...more opportunities for pump failure and leaks in a system that's pretty damn reliable.

 

[trafficinsight]

Feel free to run them dry before you switch but, like, try to be at a decent altitude first just in case.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[killbilly]

Before I even saw @Roger Roger 's reply I was gonna say a Cherokee 6. That thing is like a Suburban-Family Truckster with wings.

 

[Roger Roger]

Before I even saw @Roger Roger 's reply I was gonna say a Cherokee 6. That thing is like a Suburban-Family Truckster with wings.

Believe me after the beating and neglect I saw those things take and keep flying every day, combined with the sheer simplicity and ease of mx, I can't think of a better airplane in the class for the average owner/pilot.

 

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

If you really need six seats - Cherokee Six (300, not 240), Lance, or Saratoga. There's nothing "PITA" about swapping tanks...come on, it's a five second process that involves the torture of (gasp) leaning forward.

I set a timer on the Garmin for every thirty minutes and trade back and forth then. Works good, lasts long time.

Adding a third collector tank and two fuel pumps seems like a solution in need of a problem...more opportunities for pump failure and leaks in a system that's pretty damn reliable.

Well here is my thought, and by no means am i sure if i am right in this...

Switch tank procedure:
1. Make sure to start timer (e.g count down on transponder) - Risk for complacency.
2. Make sure to have enough altitude when switching tank, in case not enough altitude defer switching tank to later time, that means there is risk of forgetting to do this.
3. Make sure to have somewhere to land within glide distance when switching tank, in case you don't defer switching tank to later time, that means there is risk of forgetting to do this.
4. Fuel pumps on, check fuel pressure
5. Switch tank, make sure it goes to indent, no less and no more - Risk of shutting the fuel of completely
6. Fuel pumps off, check fuel pressure
7. Restart timer - Risk for complacency.
8. There is always a risk of the timer expiring when you have to do something else, talking to ATC, doing some kind of checklist, being over FAF etc. This means you might have to defer it for later. And forget.
9. The reason i am looking to buy something like this is for long cross country, we live in FL but relatives are in NC, TX and AZ. So there would possibly be situations where the flight planning will need to incorporate procedures of knowing how to switch tanks at the end of the flight in order to have a better balance, not running one side dry prior to landing etc.

There are surely more scenarios, that i will think of later, and i am not sure whether or these are real issues. That is why i am looking to hear from people here that might have done flying like this. The only long cross country flying i've ever done are in twins.

 

[Roger Roger]

Well here is my thought, and by no means am i sure if i am right in this...

Switch tank procedure:
1. Make sure to start timer (e.g count down on transponder) - Risk for complacency.
2. Make sure to have enough altitude when switching tank, in case not enough altitude defer switching tank to later time, that means there is risk of forgetting to do this.
3. Make sure to have somewhere to land within glide distance when switching tank, in case you don't defer switching tank to later time, that means there is risk of forgetting to do this.
4. Fuel pumps on, check fuel pressure
5. Switch tank, make sure it goes to indent, no less and no more - Risk of shutting the fuel of completely
6. Fuel pumps off, check fuel pressure
7. Restart timer - Risk for complacency.
8. There is always a risk of the timer expiring when you have to do something else, talking to ATC, doing some kind of checklist, being over FAF etc. This means you might have to defer it for later. And forget.
9. The reason i am looking to buy something like this is for long cross country, we live in FL but relatives are in NC, TX and AZ. So there would possibly be situations where the flight planning will need to incorporate procedures of knowing how to switch tanks at the end of the flight in order to have a better balance, not running one side dry prior to landing etc.

There are surely more scenarios, that i will think of later, and i am not sure whether or these are real issues. That is why i am looking to hear from people here that might have done flying like this. The only long cross country flying i've ever done are in twins.

I have ~700 hours in 4 tanker Cherokees switching tanks every 15 minutes. I've popped my share of tanks. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. I'd rather deal with that than maintenance on 206 or worse a bonanza which are your other options in this class and neither of those has a both selector either.

 

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

I have ~700 hours in 4 tanker Cherokees. I've popped my share of tanks. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

This is exactly the reason i am asking the question, i have 1.5 in a Saratoga... Got 5-600 hours in PA28, but all are under 3 hours flights. So not really been exposed to the scenarios for which i am planning to do

 

[Roger Roger]

This is exactly the reason i am asking the question, i have 1.5 in a Saratoga... Got 5-600 hours in PA28, but all are under 3 hours flights. So not really been exposed to the scenarios for which i am planning to do

Are you planning on getting one with autopilot? If not, you'll remember to switch tanks when one wing feels heavy. If so, a toga will do just fine running until the tank pops and come back in a few seconds after switching. It'll scare the poop out of your pax and you'll feel like an idiot but if all those timer tricks and stuff don't work you're not going to die. The big caveat is you have to have it absolutely ingrained that when the engine sputters your first reaction is switch tanks, pump on. We lost a guy from this website because he didn't have that primacy and jumped right into engine stoppage procedure, crashing a perfectly functional airplane with sufficient fuel in the process.

 

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

Are you planning on getting one with autopilot? If not, you'll remember to switch tanks when one wing feels heavy. If so, a toga will do just fine running until the tank pops and come back in a few seconds after switching. It'll scare the poop out of your pax and you'll feel like an idiot but if all those timer tricks and stuff don't work you're not going to die. The big caveat is you have to have it absolutely ingrained that when the engine sputters your first reaction is switch tanks, pump on. We lost a guy from this website because he didn't have that primacy and jumped right into engine stoppage procedure, crashing a perfectly functional airplane with sufficient fuel in the process.

Would be nice to get one with autopilot.

 

[Roger Roger]

Would be nice to get one with autopilot.

The trick I always used was switch tanks halfway through the leg. Or if a wing got heavy. Or if I had no pax and wanted to get one dry. Or...you get the idea. Oh and your whole tank switching procedure is way overboard for a Toga....switch tanks, verify fuel quantity and pressure for a few seconds, go on with your day.

 

[F9DXER]

Then there is always this....

 

[esa17]

Then there is always this....

Seeing that graphic on my IPhone it took me a millisecond to know which aircraft it was. I had to draw it by memory for my multi back in 07.

I love flying 310s but damn are they MX hogs.

 

[z987k]

Well here is my thought, and by no means am i sure if i am right in this...

Switch tank procedure:
1. Make sure to start timer (e.g count down on transponder) - Risk for complacency.
2. Make sure to have enough altitude when switching tank, in case not enough altitude defer switching tank to later time, that means there is risk of forgetting to do this.
3. Make sure to have somewhere to land within glide distance when switching tank, in case you don't defer switching tank to later time, that means there is risk of forgetting to do this.
4. Fuel pumps on, check fuel pressure
5. Switch tank, make sure it goes to indent, no less and no more - Risk of shutting the fuel of completely
6. Fuel pumps off, check fuel pressure
7. Restart timer - Risk for complacency.
8. There is always a risk of the timer expiring when you have to do something else, talking to ATC, doing some kind of checklist, being over FAF etc. This means you might have to defer it for later. And forget.
9. The reason i am looking to buy something like this is for long cross country, we live in FL but relatives are in NC, TX and AZ. So there would possibly be situations where the flight planning will need to incorporate procedures of knowing how to switch tanks at the end of the flight in order to have a better balance, not running one side dry prior to landing etc.

There are surely more scenarios, that i will think of later, and i am not sure whether or these are real issues. That is why i am looking to hear from people here that might have done flying like this. The only long cross country flying i've ever done are in twins.

So on my airplane that has 4 hours of gas, I switch tanks after 1 hour on the hobbs, then switch again after another. Then I let that tank run dry. I have 1 hour of gas. Or if I forget the hobbs, just let the first tank run dry. Now I have 2 hours of gas. Look at the hobbs and record it.

Just switch the tank, it's not hard. If that's not the very first thing you do when the engine coughs, don't go fly pistons.

 

[RedBaron2000]

One advantage of not having "BOTH" is if your fuel is contaminated in one tank you can switch to the other with presumably good fuel. The advice of "switch tanks, boost pump on" is spot on and should be overlearned, and the immediate response to any engine issues.

 

[ppragman]

Your tank switching procedure is way overboard @Johnny Beau Bekkestad

Pump on, switch tanks, pump off. If the engine quits switch back.

Honestly, in the 206, 207, and Cherokee 6 I don't even think I even turned the pump on unless the tank was super low...

 

[z987k]

Your tank switching procedure is way overboard @Johnny Beau Bekkestad

Pump on, switch tanks, pump off. If the engine quits switch back.

Honestly, in the 206, 207, and Cherokee 6 I don't even think I even turned the pump on unless the tank was super low...

A lot of airplanes don't even have pumps. High wings with carbs come to mind.

 

[frankgh]

If you have to have a method to know when to switch tanks, feel free to use my Piper Arrow method; Micky's big hand between on the right side of the watch, right tank, left side of the watch, left side. I have not perform a Risk Management Assessment on this method but I have not run a tank dry nor been laterally imbalanced. For a 4 tank plane, you could always use 1-3,3-6 etc... A 9 step procedure seems a little bit too much!