Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreement-6%

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Well, I know I'M impressed...


...you guys should just go ahead and get married already.

In an effort to minimize any further detracting from the thread. . .

Check PM.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Ahh, come on, that's no fun! Post it!

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Nah, no need really. . .just not professional of me.

 

[gtpilot]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Besides, this thread is already waaaay of target!

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

If you guys don't want to listen to a new regional FO, then listen to a major FO who's been in this business for almost a decade and spent most of that time as a union rep, including at the national level.

This has to be the most ridiculous think I've read on Jetcareers since I joined. All too often, pro-union folks on this site think you and your ALPA war drum rhetoric is absurd; people with more experience than you, people with more time in the industry than you, people in the left seat of a legacy not the right at a LCC, people with years on you. Your speechifying antics have earned you an almost banned status and a real 'stellar' reputation, Mr. ALPA. Let's make sure every new, mid-level, and senior pilot pay close attention to your "almost a decade" of experience in the big leagues.

You just redefined the "Mr. Discount Airline Pilot" skit. Well done.

 

[inside0ut]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

This has to be the most ridiculous think I've read on Jetcareers since I joined. All too often, pro-union folks on this site think you and your ALPA war drum rhetoric is absurd; people with more experience than you, people with more time in the industry than you, people in the left seat of a legacy not the right at a LCC, people with years on you. Your speechifying antics have earned you an almost banned status and a real 'stellar' reputation, Mr. ALPA. Let's make sure every new, mid-level, and senior pilot pay close attention to your "almost a decade" of experience in the big leagues.

You just redefined the "Mr. Discount Airline Pilot" skit. Well done.

LOL Merit... How can you post what I'm thinking?!?!?1

Ok, What am I thinking of...now?




.....

I wish everyone at XJet well, I have some friends there and no one likes to see it come to this. Hopefully they will pull through....

 

[flyinguitar]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

It's hard to watch you guys fight when neither of you is the real enemy.

As to whether the XJET pilots and the industry as a whole would be better off with the XJET pilots taking the pay cut or telling management to shove it, I don't know....

But what I find depressing is that things have even gotten to this point. Asking for pay concessions when regional pilots are already paid laughably low wages? How did we get here? Well, there have been pages upon pages of comments hashing that one out.

But, the bottom line is, the consensus (as I read it) is that things are not OK. We need change. We need to restore this profession that is in shambles and getting worse. And while it is over my head to tell you exactly how to do that, I can be absolutely certain of one thing that the solution will entail: we need to treat each other with respect and stick together. Even when we disagree vehemently. Don't let it get personal. We all want this profession to improve.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

You only have 915TT. . .what you say doesn't matter. . .zip it newbie. . .

Trouble is, those who tend to take the things said personally are the same ones who were not even involved in the discussion. They come in from the outsides and lob some grenades to disturb the discussion then drift off into never-never land.

Nevertheless, well said, and I'm glad your eyes are open.

 

[Polar742]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

You only have 915TT. . .what you say doesn't matter. . .zip it newbie. . .

Trouble is, those who tend to take the things said personally are the same ones who were not even involved in the discussion. They come in from the outsides and lob some grenades to disturb the discussion then drift off into never-never land.

Nevertheless, well said, and I'm glad your eyes are open.

surreal,

Here's the deal. It's not the total time. It's not the time you have in 121 operations. It's your attitude.

We are ALL entitled to our opinions. From the newest guy to be interested in airplanes to guys like Orange Anchor who has forgotten more things than I'll probably ever know about airplanes and this craft.

You may or may not realize it, but you have never EVER looked down the barrel of the gun as the XJET guys are. You have never SERVED on a union comittee. You have NEVER been through a contract cycle. You have NEVER worked for an airline that was at a point where it could close the doors any minute. You have NEVER had to vote in a situation that if you lose your job, your wife and kids are on the street. You putting people on notice who are in a situation you've only discussed on an internet forum, crewroom or coffee table is not the same as holding that ballot in your hand.

Does that make your opinions less valid? No. However, you need to chill a bit on the lectures to those that are looking down the barrel of the gun.

It's also good that you are very zealous to protect the CBA that those that came before you fought for. However, you have only lived and worked within this system for less than a year. Again, you are fully entitled to your opinions, but you need to give others who have worked under the system for YEARS or DECADES more than you respect to their opinions, even if you disagree with them.

I don't know a SINGLE person that wants to take a paycut. If you can find one, please introduce them to me so I can meet them. I don't know a single pilot, regional or otherwise, that thinks they are over paid.

I will say that not every single individual may be as educated in the history of airlines as they should. Nor is every single pilot operating under a union contract fully aware of all the provisions of that document.

When an individual comes on here and posts a question, or there is a discussion ongoing, such as in this thread, you interject your opinion and talk down to the posters. Exemplified by the 4th and 19th post in this thread.

What gives me credibility on this subject? Me.

My first job, I was handed a stack of books and told to teach experienced pilots about them in recurrent.

At first, I HAD all the answers I need in the books. So, as I trolled through the weekend, I'd spout off information I knew off the top of my head. People were pointing out issues in the books. Because I didn't have the experience of using them day in and day out, I couldn't understand their perspective. I put it off as they just didn't "get it". [rote learning - right?]

As time passed, I got time and experience in not only teaching the manuals (as a matter of fact it was real easy to learn as it was done very frequently), but I was operating under the set of rules we were given out in the system. I looked inside and realized that it wasn't "them" that didn't get it, it was "me."

After I gained even more experience, and was involved in other aspects I was able to put the academic and practical experience to use. I was able to culminate all the knowledge I had gained between operating on the line and working in the academic vacuum that an office environment can become. I was able to put positive use of this to help develop flows, procedures and checklists, as well as write manual revisions. I was further able to put this knowledge to use as our ASAP representive when the program was in it's first year trial stage.

Looking back, I had no idea how my plain rote recital was my idea of mastery of a subject.

I sincerely hope you view this as a positive post. If you pause and reflect on this, even just for a minute, I would feel successful.

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

surreal,

Here's the deal. It's not the total time. It's not the time you have in 121 operations. It's your attitude.

We are ALL entitled to our opinions. From the newest guy to be interested in airplanes to guys like Orange Anchor who has forgotten more things than I'll probably ever know about airplanes and this craft.

You may or may not realize it, but you have never EVER looked down the barrel of the gun as the XJET guys are. You have never SERVED on a union comittee. You have NEVER been through a contract cycle. You have NEVER worked for an airline that was at a point where it could close the doors any minute. You have NEVER had to vote in a situation that if you lose your job, your wife and kids are on the street. You putting people on notice who are in a situation you've only discussed on an internet forum, crewroom or coffee table is not the same as holding that ballot in your hand.

Does that make your opinions less valid? No. However, you need to chill a bit on the lectures to those that are looking down the barrel of the gun.

It's also good that you are very zealous to protect the CBA that those that came before you fought for. However, you have only lived and worked within this system for less than a year. Again, you are fully entitled to your opinions, but you need to give others who have worked under the system for YEARS or DECADES more than you respect to their opinions, even if you disagree with them.

I don't know a SINGLE person that wants to take a paycut. If you can find one, please introduce them to me so I can meet them. I don't know a single pilot, regional or otherwise, that thinks they are over paid.

I will say that not every single individual may be as educated in the history of airlines as they should. Nor is every single pilot operating under a union contract fully aware of all the provisions of that document.

When an individual comes on here and posts a question, or there is a discussion ongoing, such as in this thread, you interject your opinion and talk down to the posters. Exemplified by the 4th and 19th post in this thread.

What gives me credibility on this subject? Me.

My first job, I was handed a stack of books and told to teach experienced pilots about them in recurrent.

At first, I HAD all the answers I need in the books. So, as I trolled through the weekend, I'd spout off information I knew off the top of my head. People were pointing out issues in the books. Because I didn't have the experience of using them day in and day out, I couldn't understand their perspective. I put it off as they just didn't "get it". [rote learning - right?]

As time passed, I got time and experience in not only teaching the manuals (as a matter of fact it was real easy to learn as it was done very frequently), but I was operating under the set of rules we were given out in the system. I looked inside and realized that it wasn't "them" that didn't get it, it was "me."

After I gained even more experience, and was involved in other aspects I was able to put the academic and practical experience to use. I was able to culminate all the knowledge I had gained between operating on the line and working in the academic vacuum that an office environment can become. I was able to put positive use of this to help develop flows, procedures and checklists, as well as write manual revisions. I was further able to put this knowledge to use as our ASAP representive when the program was in it's first year trial stage.

Looking back, I had no idea how my plain rote recital was my idea of mastery of a subject.

I sincerely hope you view this as a positive post. If you pause and reflect on this, even just for a minute, I would feel successful.

pwnt

 

[SteveC]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

pwnt

And that helps, how? Polar did a nice job of explaining some things in a non-threatening, non-deregatory way. Your post does nothing except denegrate his work as being something negative against another user, which is obviously something that Polar worked real hard to avoid. For shame.


How about being part of the solution instead of part of the problem merit? You complain about things around here, yet contribute in a negative manner. Come on man, pay if forward. Set a positive tone. Be proactive instead of reactive.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

surreal,

Here's the deal. It's not the total time. It's not the time you have in 121 operations. It's your attitude.

We are ALL entitled to our opinions. From the newest guy to be interested in airplanes to guys like Orange Anchor who has forgotten more things than I'll probably ever know about airplanes and this craft.

You may or may not realize it, but you have never EVER looked down the barrel of the gun as the XJET guys are. You have never SERVED on a union comittee. You have NEVER been through a contract cycle. You have NEVER worked for an airline that was at a point where it could close the doors any minute. You have NEVER had to vote in a situation that if you lose your job, your wife and kids are on the street. You putting people on notice who are in a situation you've only discussed on an internet forum, crewroom or coffee table is not the same as holding that ballot in your hand.

Does that make your opinions less valid? No. However, you need to chill a bit on the lectures to those that are looking down the barrel of the gun.

It's also good that you are very zealous to protect the CBA that those that came before you fought for. However, you have only lived and worked within this system for less than a year. Again, you are fully entitled to your opinions, but you need to give others who have worked under the system for YEARS or DECADES more than you respect to their opinions, even if you disagree with them.

I don't know a SINGLE person that wants to take a paycut. If you can find one, please introduce them to me so I can meet them. I don't know a single pilot, regional or otherwise, that thinks they are over paid.

I will say that not every single individual may be as educated in the history of airlines as they should. Nor is every single pilot operating under a union contract fully aware of all the provisions of that document.

When an individual comes on here and posts a question, or there is a discussion ongoing, such as in this thread, you interject your opinion and talk down to the posters. Exemplified by the 4th and 19th post in this thread.

What gives me credibility on this subject? Me.

My first job, I was handed a stack of books and told to teach experienced pilots about them in recurrent.

At first, I HAD all the answers I need in the books. So, as I trolled through the weekend, I'd spout off information I knew off the top of my head. People were pointing out issues in the books. Because I didn't have the experience of using them day in and day out, I couldn't understand their perspective. I put it off as they just didn't "get it". [rote learning - right?]

As time passed, I got time and experience in not only teaching the manuals (as a matter of fact it was real easy to learn as it was done very frequently), but I was operating under the set of rules we were given out in the system. I looked inside and realized that it wasn't "them" that didn't get it, it was "me."

After I gained even more experience, and was involved in other aspects I was able to put the academic and practical experience to use. I was able to culminate all the knowledge I had gained between operating on the line and working in the academic vacuum that an office environment can become. I was able to put positive use of this to help develop flows, procedures and checklists, as well as write manual revisions. I was further able to put this knowledge to use as our ASAP representive when the program was in it's first year trial stage.

Looking back, I had no idea how my plain rote recital was my idea of mastery of a subject.

I sincerely hope you view this as a positive post. If you pause and reflect on this, even just for a minute, I would feel successful.

Real quick, I appreciate your candor and tact. A lost art it seems.

Check PM.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Look guys, it's pretty simple to me.

Clocks, I'm glad we finally came to an equitable agreement. I also can see where you might have felt that I was being heavy handed, etc. No love lost.

To everyone else at XJT, obviously this tentative agreement regarding this supposed 6% pay cut is a personal one. It's a tough one I'm sure, one that I haven't had to make yet. One that, honestly, I hope I never have to make.

I don't apologize for my statements and opinions. I will apologize though if anything that I have said puts people in a position they feel that they can not communicate their own statements and opinions on a certain subject. I'm a huge fan of open, honest, dialogue. I look forward to many more interesting, controversial, career related topics in the future.

C'est la vie

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

And that helps, how? Polar did a nice job of explaining some things in a non-threatening, non-deregatory way. Your post does nothing except denegrate his work as being something negative against another user, which is obviously something that Polar worked real hard to avoid. For shame.


How about being part of the solution instead of part of the problem merit? You complain about things around here, yet contribute in a negative manner. Come on man, pay if forward. Set a positive tone. Be proactive instead of reactive.

Merit wouldn't have to do that if some users weren't so close minded or listened to members with more experience in the industry.

Having said that, great post polar. It's what I was thinking but couldn't say properly.

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

How about being part of the solution instead of part of the problem merit? You complain about things around here, yet contribute in a negative manner. Come on man, pay if forward. Set a positive tone. Be proactive instead of reactive.

Give me a break.

Some of the militant minded people on this site can not help themselves. They're so set in their ways and closed minded that it sets an immovable connotation of self righteousness. With regards to a solution Steve, I dont think there is one unless the self professed "Militant Trade Unionists" get off their ridiculous campaign of BS rhetoric.

People are getting really tired of hearing it and candidly, I have had it with this website and it's undertone. If you want to start banning people in an effort to clean it up, by all means, start with me.

 

[MQAAord]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Nobody's starting a "banning" effort.

Very, very few people have ever actually been banned here.

It's not about beating someone with a stick, it's about the sharing of knowledge.



Polar, man, that was beautiful!

 

[Baronman]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

I have a question for PCL....

If our union (XJTALPA) has put forth this TA and the ALPA guys have supposedly looked at the books and are in agreement that this is necessary, then what's your beef with it? Is their analysis flawed and how so?

 

[Trip7]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

I don't know, but a proposal for concessions that would help the company just enough to break-even doesn't sound too good, especially in this economy.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

I have a question for PCL....

If our union (XJTALPA) has put forth this TA and the ALPA guys have supposedly looked at the books and are in agreement that this is necessary, then what's your beef with it? Is their analysis flawed and how so?

It's not a matter of the analysis being flawed. It's a matter of pilots not stepping in to balance the checkbook every time management does something stupid. Management agreed to a CPA that was unworkable, and they knew it was unworkable when they signed it. They ass-umed that you would accept concessions to make up for their stupid decision. And now you're going to reward them for this stupid decision by giving them their concessions? Sorry, but pilots should not be paying for management's stupid decisions out of their own pockets. Force management to balance their checkbook some other way. Balancing it on the backs of the pilots is simply not acceptable. If management can't afford to pay rates that are already woefully below what they should be, then the company doesn't deserve to be in business.

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

It's not a matter of the analysis being flawed. It's a matter of pilots not stepping in to balance the checkbook every time management does something stupid. Management agreed to a CPA that was unworkable, and they knew it was unworkable when they signed it. They ass-umed that you would accept concessions to make up for their stupid decision. And now you're going to reward them for this stupid decision by giving them their concessions? Sorry, but pilots should not be paying for management's stupid decisions out of their own pockets. Force management to balance their checkbook some other way. Balancing it on the backs of the pilots is simply not acceptable. If management can't afford to pay rates that are already woefully below what they should be, then the company doesn't deserve to be in business.

What a brash, uneducated, conspiracy oriented assumption.

Then again, what else would anyone expect you to say?