Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreement-6%

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

You call it chest thumping. . .

I call it critically thinking about one's career. . .

To each his/her own. I'm not going to apologize for taking my profession seriously. More importantly, I'm never going to apologize for being an advocate of the working class in this country, who have for far too long taken it time after time from their management, and pro-business politicians who fail to realize the strength that is the American worker. The same strength that brought this country together during it's greatest generation and is now being shoved aside for corporate greed.

Hopefully you realize that my opinions are not solely related to aviation labor, and actually reflect the larger spectrum of labor relations. Being a brand new FO has nothing to do with my deep rooted values and integrity in supporting the hard working individuals in this country. But of course, it's easy to simply deflect the comments and issues being discussed by calling someone out by dating their time in a position. :whatever:

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

I'm an FO too and I agree with surreal 100%. For some people this isn't their first career nor is it their first time getting screwed by Management so their experience in labor issues isn't limited by their experience at an airline.

 

[Clocks]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

But of course, it's easy to simply deflect the comments and issues being discussed by calling someone out by dating their time in a position. :whatever:

I said (and you ignored) that I'm not saying I disagree with you. You just come on really heavy.

Just like I'm sure there are a lot of college kids who have read a lot of books about politics, maybe volunteered some too. But I don't think I could listen to one stand on a soapbox and preach to me about how not voting for a republican would mean the country would be destroyed for more than about 30 seconds. Even though we're in agreement that everyone should vote republican

We agree on the principles being discussed, concessions are bad, xjet may or may not go into BK anyways, etc. But probably not on whether a horrible industry-wide chain reaction will come from this, or if it's the job of the xjet pilots to possibly take it in the bleep even worse by refusing any concessions no matter what so that the majority of regionals out there can continue to undercut xjet on work rules and pay.

That was my point.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

The company is just as liable to go into BK with or without pay concessions.

It's not the pay of your employees that drive a company into BK, it's a management team's inability to sufficiently manage a company, managing the assets, and managing the liability that drive a company in BK.

But of course. . .labor is the excuse, always has been, and always will until we stand up and say enough is enough.

To come to the resolution, on an individual level, that this is okay and that I don't mind being pushed around and asked (told) to take a concessionary pay cut, or else. . .is simply lunacy. You all, every last one of you, worked extremely hard to get to XJT. You all, every last one of you, worked extremely hard to provide a quality product to your customer. And this is how the company treats you? Then, to somehow come to the decision that this is okay on an individual level? This just baffles me. No wonder our management groups can push us each around, we don't have any damn conviction on how to be treated.

:laff: :laff:

haha lol

Have you gone to school?

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

What a crock. 10 million a year is supposed to save the company. I say let the place burn before giving them a dime. Nice timing on the TA by the way.

The company is just as liable to go into BK with or without pay concessions.

It's not the pay of your employees that drive a company into BK, it's a management team's inability to sufficiently manage a company, managing the assets, and managing the liability that drive a company in BK.

But of course. . .labor is the excuse, always has been, and always will until we stand up and say enough is enough.

To come to the resolution, on an individual level, that this is okay and that I don't mind being pushed around and asked (told) to take a concessionary pay cut, or else. . .is simply lunacy. You all, every last one of you, worked extremely hard to get to XJT. You all, every last one of you, worked extremely hard to provide a quality product to your customer. And this is how the company treats you? Then, to somehow come to the decision that this is okay on an individual level? This just baffles me. No wonder our management groups can push us each around, we don't have any damn conviction on how to be treated.

Glad to see all the closet financial analysts have come out of their holes. Business finance must be a new pre-requisite to being a regional FO.

XJT had ALPA National's financial advisors look at the books and options in detail and agree this is essential for XJT to reduce it's variable costs and secure their very existence. So, unless the ALPA cons on this site are suggesting their own union is full of lies and deception, they ought to support the organization they stand with so insistently - especially after the union has done their due diligence.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

:laff: :laff:

haha lol

Have you gone to school?

Another non sequitor posting, and ad hominem while we're discussing logical fallacies. How would you like me to answer?

Yes, I've gone to school. . .

No, I haven't gone to school. . .

Would you like to challenge any of my positions and statements? Or is another non sequitor or ad hominem post in your future?

 

[Clocks]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

XJT was instrumental in assisting in my company developing, and ultimately acquiring a CBA that made a significant effort in jacking up our corner of the house. It would be absolutely sad to see the XJT corner making a notch downward considering this relationship.

Now that comment gets the Clocks Stamp of Approval

It makes every important point of your previous posts without the inflammatory or accusatory tone.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Glad we could come to a mutual agreement.

It is possible, at least when people don't resort to ad hominem fallacies.

I hope you realize that my previous postings really are not meant to be heavy handed. Firm, perhaps, heavy handed - no. I don't expect everyone to see the labor / management relationship the same way I do. But I certainly hope and would expect educated members of our profession to realize certain connections that can be drawn by the decisions of segments of our profession and how they impact the decision making ability of those who might have to face similar threats.

 

[dvtpilot]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

......However, dont jump to conclusions......

Sorry, couldn't resist.



Carry on.

 

[ChrisH]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Forgive me if I am not understanding, but this time next year, pilots at XJT will receive a pay raise, and be making more than they are now, before the pay cut, according to the below. Will cutting pay for the period of one year really make that big of a difference?

Woefully underpaid compared to which regional? Or do you just mean pilots should be paid more in general?

Current FO pay rates:

2 - 33.48
3 - 35.57
4 - 37.94
5 - 39.07
6 - 40.25

The FO pay rates as of October 08 will be:

2 - 32.81
3 - 34.57
4 - 36.87
5 - 37.94
6 - 39.07

The new FO pay rates as of December 09 will be (with the 2.06% increase in October 09 and the normal annual December pay increase):

2 - 34.49
3 - 36.34
4 - 38.76
5 - 39.88
6 - 41.07

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Nice scam. . .

Thanks guys. . .thanks a lot. Now here come the wave of consessionary requests from all of our respective managament teams.

:banghead:

This totally screams a "me first mentality."

The argument can be made that you're looking after the profession as a whole but the way your statement comes across is very selfish.

Do you think anyone at XJT wants to take concessions? I'm guessing it's a resounding NO. But you aren't at XJT. YOU have nothing to lose compared to a fellow pilot at XJT. Pilots at XJT have years invested in that company and I guarantee they want to keep their job and not burn the place down. There's just too much to lose.

Their stock is in the crapper and if management needs some help from all parties (notice I said all employees), then it should be given some consideration.

When a stock is around $1.65 a share, obviously things aren't going well.

Very true. My apologies.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that for a company to ask, or for a union that is suppose to represent the interests of their pilots to mutually agree to a pay cut considering the overall economic pain we as individuals living in this country are facing is simply laughable in my opinion.

I know I'm not alone, and I very well think I am in the minority, but I would be standing my ground on anything pay related. The company can find other ways to save 10 million dollars than taking it from labor. . .again. . .and again. . .and again.

What if the company needs more than 10 million?

Maybe, just maybe they company needs to find ways to save 50 million a year that is coming from more than just labor....(I really haven't seen a plan and 50 million is an arbitrary number).

The company is just as liable to go into BK with or without pay concessions.

It's not the pay of your employees that drive a company into BK, it's a management team's inability to sufficiently manage a company, managing the assets, and managing the liability that drive a company in BK.

But of course. . .labor is the excuse, always has been, and always will until we stand up and say enough is enough.

To come to the resolution, on an individual level, that this is okay and that I don't mind being pushed around and asked (told) to take a concessionary pay cut, or else. . .is simply lunacy. You all, every last one of you, worked extremely hard to get to XJT. You all, every last one of you, worked extremely hard to provide a quality product to your customer. And this is how the company treats you? Then, to somehow come to the decision that this is okay on an individual level? This just baffles me. No wonder our management groups can push us each around, we don't have any damn conviction on how to be treated.

I don't think they're blaming labor.

But let me tell you something about the regional airline world.

They ARE ALL contractors. They don't own the routes, they bid on them like a contractor bids to paint a house, install plumbing in a house, etc. If a company can't compete on price, game over. Do you understand that?

 

[Clocks]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Forgive me if I am not understanding, but this time next year, pilots at XJT will receive a pay raise, and be making more than they are now, before the pay cut, according to the below.

But we would have been making more (well not me, I'm furloughed).

All in all its a roughly 6% loss in hourly pay, then in October 09 the pilots get back 2.06% and from that point on all pay continues like normal (the lost pay isn't restored...the company isn't going to mail out a check to make up for that 6% of lost pay, but the normal pay raises continue).

I think I typed that correctly anyways.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

This totally screams a "me first mentality."

The argument can be made that you're looking after the profession as a whole but the way your statement comes across is very selfish.

And obviously you failed to see where I apologized for my initial post in this thread. But then, that'd leave you with nothing really to write about.

I don't think they're blaming labor.

But let me tell you something about the regional airline world.

They ARE ALL contractors. They don't own the routes, they bid on them like a contractor bids to paint a house, install plumbing in a house, etc. If a company can't compete on price, game over. Do you understand that?

No, I don't understand. Why don't you clear it all up for me. Man, that'd be great.

Give me a break.

Some of us have convictions, and tend to stand by our statements. So yes, I know exactly what that means. It means that a company failed to reasonably run their operation. Leaving them with little choices to find excess capitol and cash to continue operating. Hence, they come looking for the easy quick fix - let's get some concessions from labor. Of which, I hold a certain principle that directs me to say "No" to such a little venture by a management team that perhaps has failed to exercise their "education" to lead a company to a successful future.

Gee - how many times has management actually held true to this? History shows that getting concessions from your employees won't save or sink a company, and more often than not the company ends up being liquidated or bankrupt (Eastern is a great example of this). Lorenzo asked his employees for 100 days . . . 100 days to save the company. What happened? 45 days later the company was liquidated. I could go on and on about the historical trends that indicate concessions won't save a company. So ultimately, stop accepting them. The End.

 

[Clocks]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

History shows that getting concessions from your employees won't save or sink a company, but hey - we might as well do it anyway so the stockholders and individual investment firms that analyze us look at us as if we're actually DOING something.

Once again - gimme a break.

Then why wouldn't the union come out and say "They're lying, they are no where close to BK which means we can turn this down without any fear of a BK judge taking more from us".

If it's always a lie then the union should have told the company to go bleep itself.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Because perhaps we lack the collective fortitude to say "No." Or for various reasons. I'm not involved in XJT's local association. We lack the collective fortitude to say no, but we also don't want to ruin the relationship of being reasonable with our respective management teams. A certain level of trust is achieved through a process of working together. Unfortunately in my eyes, that level of trust tends to be inflated during times such as these. We want to trust that our management teams will guide us through trouble waters, but when they come down asking for concessions without exercising all other cost saving initiatives (speculation) why must we be the ones to take the brunt of the force? Why must labor always be the one giving back? Have we not given enough back through the past 8 years? When is enough enough? That's a personal decision, but one that I would expect all of us to be able to come together on at some point.

 

[Clocks]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

So you're saying the union may value the benefits of a good labor-mgt relationship more than a 6% paycut. If management is always lying about the company's financial situation (i.e. BK is always a lie, never a possibility) the question then becomes does maintaining a positive labor-mgt relationship actually have value for labor?

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Sure. Especially if we are lead to believe that this 6% paycut will help keep the company alive. Of course you want to be viewed by your management team as being reasonable and team players. But then the question is. . .so when do we see that 6% increase? How long are we going to be handcuffed by this 6% rate cut.

More importantly - What will we as a work group get in return? Is it tangible? Will we be rewarded for our end of the bargain, as I'm sure you (management) will certainly be rewarded in the form of a couple hundred thousand dollar bonus for keeping the company afloat, all the while labor was taking it on the chin?

Yes, a positive labor-mgt relationship has value for labor. But does the individual management figures have a positive relationship and outlook for labor.

You can have a positive relationship, but if management doesn't value your performance, skills, and determination, that positive relationship doesn't matter as you won't be rewarded for it. Especially when behind closed doors they realize how easy and simple it is to use fear into getting what they desire.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

And obviously you failed to see where I apologized for my initial post in this thread. But then, that'd leave you with nothing really to write about.

No, I don't understand. Why don't you clear it all up for me. Man, that'd be great.

Give me a break.

Some of us have convictions, and tend to stand by our statements. So yes, I know exactly what that means. It means that a company failed to reasonably run their operation. Leaving them with little choices to find excess capitol and cash to continue operating. Hence, they come looking for the easy quick fix - let's get some concessions from labor. Of which, I hold a certain principle that directs me to say "No" to such a little venture by a management team that perhaps has failed to exercise their "education" to lead a company to a successful future.

Did Xjet ask for concessions when they started their terrible venture known as Express Jet?

If my memory serves me correct they didn't ask for concessions. They easily could have but they tried something with little chance for success and failed. I believe this company is doing this as a last resort. They're bleeding cash and need help from all parties.

To come out and say No right away without being informed (like yourself), well it's just dangerous. *sorry, cheesy Biden stab.

Oh, and to prove you wrong on your "concessions never helped a company out." Look at WHO you fly for. No, not the company you've been a FO at for less than year but Delta. Members of our website took huge paycuts. One of them even had to move states to afford to live.

I'd say Delta is doing pretty well right now.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Okay stuckingfk, you clearly have out lasted me. You win Champ.

Yes, Delta pilots took huge paycuts, and lost A LOT to help the company. Following one of our nation's darkest periods in our recent history. And, due to a positive labor-mgt relationship, the pilot group is being rewarded (slightly) for their actions. No one though will be able to bring back the promised retirement for the pilot group, or for the work group my father is involved with.

Totally different situation than a company that is bleeding cash because of a poor business venture that proved to be unsustainable.

But sure, draw the parallels all night. I'm off to bed. Good Game Champ.

 

[Alchemy]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

I am calling you incorrect for stating 3% when its 2.86% and other errors. Thats how small things snowball into big issues and when a busy pilot has limited time to research the TA they may, in error, follow a post they read online rather than pick up the actual document or call a Union Rep.

Dont take it personally, I am just stating that the post you made was not 100% correct and that pilots should do the analysis for themselves and ask the Union reps or a Financial advisor [if they dont want to ask a Rep] This is a career and I would hope that any information provided to my peers is 100% correct so they can be informed when they vote.

If you're going to lable my post incorrect in big red letters over less than 1/7th of a percentage point, at least have the courtesy to give us the "corrections". So what else is "INCORRECT"?