Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreement-6%

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Okay stuckingfk, you clearly have out lasted me. You win Champ.

Yes, Delta pilots took huge paycuts, and lost A LOT to help the company. Following one of our nation's most darkest periods in our recent history.

Totally different situation that a company that is bleeding cash because of a poor business venture that proved to be unsustainable.

But sure, draw the parallel all night. I'm off to bed. Good Game Champ.

You crack me up. Clearly a new regional jet FO with a pseudo MBA has sized me up, lol. How about you come with some more sarcastic comments that prove you don't know what you're talking about. Usually when one resorts to name calling, which I have not, they lose credibility.

So what period is the U.S. in right now? I'd say it's worse than 9/11.

Banks are falling left and right, house foreclosures are at an all time high, the wonderful socialistic government we have wants 700 billion to bail out a few inept companies, the Dow Jones is down around 25.5% (3600 points) since 10/08/07. The year long decline in the economy is nothing to laugh at. 9/11 caused a Dow Jones drop of around 14.3% (1370 points). Less than 60 days (11/09/07) later it was back above of 09/10's close of 9605 points.

I'll give you one thing, I admire your conviction for labor. Not that I think pilots are worth nothing, but Xjet pilots have zero leverage right now. If the economy were different and their management had a brain, then they might have a leg to stand on. But they don't.

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

You crack me up. Clearly a new regional jet FO with a pseudo MBA has sized me up, lol. How about you come with some more sarcastic comments that prove you don't know what you're talking about. Usually when one resorts to name calling, which I have not, they lose credibility.

Get used to it stuckingfk.

This site has one or two guys (two, actually) that know little about a lot and candidly, it's ruining this place.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Get used to it stuckingfk.

This site has one or two guys (two, actually) that know little about a lot and candidly, it's ruining this place.

I'm used to it. And frankly, it's comical.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

If you guys don't want to listen to a new regional FO, then listen to a major FO who's been in this business for almost a decade and spent most of that time as a union rep, including at the national level.

I know how ALPA functions on these things. The attorneys are incredibly conservative, because quite simply, that's what attorneys do. They give you the worst case scenario and try to get you to take the most conservative path. The job of a true union leader is to know when to tell the attorneys to pipe down. In my opinion, this is one of those cases. A 6% paycut is not going to make or break the company, and even if it did, is it worth it? Is it worth it for an FO who can make more at Home Depot to take a paycut? I think not. It's not the job of labor to balance management's checkbook. They agreed to a CPA that was not possibly capable of turning a profit. That's a bad management decision. They need to figure out how to deal with it without trying to force labor to shoulder the burden. Do not allow yourselves to become enablers.

 

[wzgrza]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

With pilot pay the way it is, especially in the regionals, it would BOGGLE MY MIND, if ANY pilot at ANY regional took any concessions. RIDICULOUS!

 

[gtpilot]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

- Letter promising not to seek additional concessions from the pilots if the company enters bankruptcy (yeah right).

- Snapbacks: 25% if 80 mil in annual profits are reached, 50% if 90 mil, 100% if 100 mil of profits are reached. 10% of pretax profits go to profit sharing, in addition, half of all profits beyond 30 mil go to profit sharing.

- Pay restored if ownership is changed, or maagement compnsation levels ncrease

This agreement will supposedly save the company $10,200,000 anually and, combined with concessionary packages from other work groups, allow Expressjet to "break even" on their new 7 year CPA with Continental.

If the above are true, I don't see why this would not be reasonable. Sounds like everyone in the company, from top to bottom, is expected to take the cut.

No shortage of fear grenades being lobbed by both management and the union on this one. To top it off the company waited until today, the day 347 pilots lost their jobs, to reach a TA. Guess they didn't like how those 347 were going to vote.

And this is why I doubt the above management 'concessions' will hold firm.

But let me tell you something about the regional airline world.

They ARE ALL contractors. They don't own the routes, they bid on them like a contractor bids to paint a house, install plumbing in a house, etc. If a company can't compete on price, game over. Do you understand that?

Companies compete with price and quality. If you want the lowest price, you get Mesa. If you want quality, you get XJT.

I'll give you one thing, I admire your conviction for labor. Not that I think pilots are worth nothing, but Xjet pilots have zero leverage right now. If the economy were different and their management had a brain, then they might have a leg to stand on. But they don't.

Xjet pilots actually have a lot of leverage. They don't have to single engine taxi, slow cruise or use 4 degree descents. These items alone would more than make up the 6% or so in question. I'm not advocating that they damage the company by not doing these things, but pilot actions have the potential to save the company a tremendous amount of money.

XJT was instrumental in assisting in my company developing, and ultimately acquiring a CBA that made a significant effort in jacking up our corner of the house. It would be absolutely sad to see the XJT corner making a notch downward considering this relationship.

Unfortunately, our company's contract with D includes a 'competitive cost' clause. If we see more companies do this, it will come back to bite us. Fortunately, Xjet is no longer a DCI competitor.

I have a lot of friends with Xjet, and you are quality guys! Good luck friends!

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Mesa's not the lowest priced regional flying CRJ or CRJ equivilents out there, at least not all the time.

I kind of like flying on Mesa once our flights actually depart -- almost all of the problems are related to crap Management/Operations. For example, no spare airplane means anytime we write one up flights are delayed hours.

I think our flight attendants and pilots provide excellent service to the actual customer, when we're able to.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

You crack me up. Clearly a new regional jet FO with a pseudo MBA has sized me up, lol. How about you come with some more sarcastic comments that prove you don't know what you're talking about. Usually when one resorts to name calling, which I have not, they lose credibility.

I'm glad I crack you up tough guy - because that's exactly how your tone is portraying you. An all-wise, educational wiz-kid who can't be debated with.

Rather, you question my education level - sarcastically (that you're professing that I not do) I might add in the very first post you make in this thread.

I took the bait, and here we sit. If you want to address any of the specifics I said I'll gladly discuss them with you.

Has nothing to do with having a pseudo MBA. I don't hold an MBA. I haven't spent 60 credit hours listening to college Professors spill their knowledge about pro-management, anti-labor tactics and theories. Sorry.

Fallacies are great crutches for some people, and that's fine I suppose. I just expect more than the average bear here on JetCareers.

I'll give you one thing, I admire your conviction for labor. Not that I think pilots are worth nothing, but Xjet pilots have zero leverage right now. If the economy were different and their management had a brain, then they might have a leg to stand on. But they don't.

And there you go. . .

The conviction is that NO ONE should be accepting pay concessions, especially after establishing one of the best collective bargaining agreements seen in the sub-contract industry. One that played an influential role in allowing another company to achieve their contract.

Enough is Enough.

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Way to dodge the Delta concessions and the fact that we are in a much tougher time now then back in 2001.

So I'll ask you directly.

Do you think the Delta concessions helped the company at all?

Economically, is it worse now or was it worse after Sept. 11th?

And once again, using names again. Bravo. I can be debated with, but one thing I don't do is get into a debate I know I'm going to lose.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Actually, I addressed the Delta concessions. Might want to look again.

It's okay for you to use sarcasm and make an attempt to judge my educational level, and it's not okay for me to call you a tough guy for making an attempt to judge my educational level. I see, crystal clear now. :whatever:

You'll also see that Delta has recently offered their pilot group substantial improvements as the Delta and NWA merge moves closer. So, overall, for the Delta pilots and other Delta work groups - today's economic landscape is a much better one than following 9/11.

Now, if that isn't clear enough: Delta is offering their pilot group incentives, not asking for concessions. If Delta's economic footprint was worse off now than it was post 9/11 why would they be providing incentives to the work groups?

But, the overall economic footprint of our country is yes, in a much more unstable environment today than it was following 9/11. But you asked about Delta, not the country as a whole.

I don't know who you work for, but your profile doesn't necessarily indicate you are employed by a sub-contract lift provider. With that said, that's great. But, I have a vested interested in how this turns out for XJT. All of us employed by sub-contract lift providers have a vested interest in this - as it potentially could lead to a domino effect of our respective management teams, when pressured by their mainline partners to save cost like XJT and CAL to come after labor - again.

Man, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

I don't even necessarily disagree with you, but I don't know how much more self-righteous chest-thumping I can listen to from a brand new FO.

I'm new too...but jesus dude.

No kidding. I'm getting a permanent red mark on my forehead from all the facepalming I do when I read his posts

 

[stuckingfk]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Actually, I addressed the Delta concessions. Might want to look again.

It's okay for you to use sarcasm and make an attempt to judge my educational level, and it's not okay for me to call you a tough guy for making an attempt to judge my educational level. I see, crystal clear now. :whatever:

You'll also see that Delta has recently offered their pilot group substantial improvements as the Delta and NWA merge moves closer. So, overall, for the Delta pilots and other Delta work groups - today's economic landscape is a much better one than following 9/11.

Now, if that isn't clear enough: Delta is offering their pilot group incentives, not asking for concessions. If Delta's economic footprint was worse off now than it was post 9/11 why would they be providing incentives to the work groups?

But, the overall economic footprint of our country is yes, in a much more unstable environment today than it was following 9/11. But you asked about Delta, not the country as a whole.

I don't know who you work for, but your profile doesn't necessarily indicate you are employed by a sub-contract lift provider. With that said, that's great. But, I have a vested interested in how this turns out for XJT. All of us employed by sub-contract lift providers have a vested interest in this - as it potentially could lead to a domino effect of our respective management teams, when pressured by their mainline partners to save cost like XJT and CAL to come after labor - again.

Man, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

You didn't address Delta's concessions, you merely brushed over them.

And you were the one that brought up 9/11 and calling it a "one of the darkest times," ect. I refuted that point and compared the times now to then and obviously won that point. What I was trying to say is that Xjet has it worse than Delta did.

I think Delta's position now has to be one of the best in the industry. You're right about that. Management there has made several great decisions 6+ years ago that allowed them to be in the financial position they're in today.

To the poster that talked about SE taxi, why is Xjet not doing that already? If they are, then good. But if they aren't, that's just plain stupid. And maybe, just maybe they need more than 10 million a year and they plan on combining labor savings with fuel savings to come up with a bigger number. This isn't rocket science.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

No kidding. I'm getting a permanent red mark on my forehead from all the facepalming I do when I read his posts

You shouldn't abuse yourself like that.

I'm really looking forward to having a drink with you. . .

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

If I had <1 year with a company I sure as heck wouldn't vote for a paycut. With 3, 4, 5+ years your perspective changes.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

To the poster that talked about SE taxi, why is Xjet not doing that already? If they are, then good. But if they aren't, that's just plain stupid. And maybe, just maybe they need more than 10 million a year and they plan on combining labor savings with fuel savings to come up with a bigger number. This isn't rocket science.

SE taxi wouldn't save XJT any money, it would save CAL as they pay fuel costs. Also it's debatable whether it actually saves money, depending on weight and taxi time my company has said it can actually use more gas.

 

[gtpilot]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

SE taxi wouldn't save XJT any money, it would save CAL as they pay fuel costs. Also it's debatable whether it actually saves money, depending on weight and taxi time my company has said it can actually use more gas.

Not sure how XJT's agreement read, but competitive cost structure is a key element of ours. So, we can make up for higher wages with fuel savings. I would be really surprised is SE taxi did not save gas/money...I admit no real experience with other types, but the CRJ200 seems to idle taxi just fine on one engine. I can't see any real debate for the issue at major airports (JFK, ATL, etc) and at many smaller airports, SE taxi is impossible due to the 2 minute warm-up limit. So, honestly curious, how did you company derive that SE taxi could use more gas?

BTW, dunno if XJET encourages fuel conservation, just pointing out a big area the company could ask for the pilots for savings/'concessions' that would not necessarily come out of pilot wages. And, if it's not rocket science, then why is the practice relatively new?

 

[gtpilot]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

You shouldn't abuse yourself like that.

I'm really looking forward to having a drink with you. . .

It's funny, I flew with a guy this summer who posts on another forum. From his posts, I thought I would have hated him - in person, he was a fun guy to spend a four day trip with. He's also the only capt I've flown with who always remembers my name when we pass in ops. I read his posts very differently now!

Can't we all just get along?

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Most of us can get along just fine

Just when internet web forum bravado gets in the way. . .I see you've stopped stalking me on the reserve list.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Not sure how XJT's agreement read, but competitive cost structure is a key element of ours. So, we can make up for higher wages with fuel savings.

It's generally two different lines in the ledger. A certain amount of fuel burn is built into the CPA. If it's over that amount your company pays for it out of their profit. If it's under that you don't get to keep the money normally spent on fuel - it is a completely passed thru cost.

Yes I know it sounds crazy but that's the way it is, at least here.

So, honestly curious, how did you company derive that SE taxi could use more gas?

If I remember correctly it was with weights >45k and taxi times <15 minutes you'd burn more gas. It takes a LOT of power to get the CRJ moving on a SE. If you start and stop a lot I can see it burning more, plus a lot more wear and tear on the engines themselves. This came down from above, I have my own opinions but trust those in the training department know what they are doing...

BTW, dunno if XJET encourages fuel conservation, just pointing out a big area the company could ask for the pilots for savings/'concessions' that would not necessarily come out of pilot wages. And, if it's not rocket science, then why is the practice relatively new?

Again, two different lines in the ledger. Yes you can "save" $100/hr on fuel burn but CAL just says "thanks". We are expected to do that anyway.

I bet their agreement looks something like this (just made up numbers).

XJT provides lift service for $1500/hr plus $500/hr fuel burn allowance.
XJT must get their direct/indirect costs under $1500/hr in addition to <$500/hr fuel burn.

Hence cutting costs from all areas to get to or below (for the profit) that magical $1500/hr mark (or whatever "real" number it is).

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: Expressjet & ALPA Reach Tentative Concessionary Agreemen

Not sure how XJT's agreement read, but competitive cost structure is a key element of ours. So, we can make up for higher wages with fuel savings. I would be really surprised is SE taxi did not save gas/money...I admit no real experience with other types, but the CRJ200 seems to idle taxi just fine on one engine. I can't see any real debate for the issue at major airports (JFK, ATL, etc) and at many smaller airports, SE taxi is impossible due to the 2 minute warm-up limit. So, honestly curious, how did you company derive that SE taxi could use more gas?

I have heard that in certain, albeit limited, circumstances that the amount of thrust required to get the plane rolling with one engine can actually make it less fuel efficient. Like if you are taxing up a hill or something like that. Very limited circumstances but they are there. Try it when in ATL and you are taxing to 26R and are stopped on the hill by Delta maintenance hangars.

wheelsup beat me to it...