Survey: Visual Descent Point

[Giannipilota]

Dear Colleagues,

I am a Retired Airline Captain, who's doing a study on the use of the Visual Descent Point.

I kindly ask you to participate in an anonymous survey that I uploaded in "Google Forms".

With the first click you go to Visual Descent Point Survey

With the second click you can choose the answer you think is correct.

The scenario is as follows: you are on your company's aircraft, in a NPA ( non-precision approach ). When you arrive at the VDP, your visibility allows you to see the terrain, but not the approach lights or the Runway.

With the third click you can respond to the same question, but in a different scenario: you are on a sport aircraft, either owned or rented, and your free choice is not subject to your company's procedures.

With the fourth click (on the coloured button at the bottom left), you submit your answers.

It will only take a few minutes, but your answers will be very useful for this in-depth study.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[DropTank]

Am I clocking an unknown link from a new user?
NOPE

Am I descending from VDP without seeing the runway?
NOPE

Am I descending even when no one's looking over my shoulder?
NOPE

Why??
No need to take a chance unless I'm absolutely sure.

 

[mightynimbus]

Colonel Mustard, In the library, with the Candlestick holder

 

[Nick]

No idea what the above angst is about.

I'll take the survey in a minute, Gianni.

What's the end goal of your research?

 

[mightynimbus]

No idea what the above angst is about.

I'll take the survey in a minute, Gianni.

What's the end goal of your research?

The survey requires your e-mail address, you still interested?

 

[Giannipilota]

Dear Nick, thank you for your reply.
The reason is that it seems that different pilots do not clear which maneuver to do in those conditions.
I believe that once the answers is quantified, it is interesting to deepen the word.

Dear Mightynimbus, Google does not require e-mail address, and in any case it gives me exclusively responses not linked to the authors; I really set the SurveyForm because it is absolutely anonymous. He does not matter who responds and how, but the percentages of the answers given.

On the occasion thanks to all those who want to participate in the general interest.
Ciao

 

[MikeD]

Fixed wing: at the MDA, reach the VDP, nothing in sight, execute missed approach. Even if terrain-only in sight, I have no reference of the runway or environment to descend to, which risks a duck under towards terrain/obstacles, or an overshoot to being too steep. Regardless of airplane type.

Helicopter: at the MDA, reach the VDP, nothing in sight, press on at MDA to the MAP. If I see the airport up the MAP, descend and land, including a turning descent if need be, as the VDP isn’t a requirement for a helo. If nothing at the MAP (I wood assume if the ground was seen, the airport would be see by this point), then execute missed from the MAP.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I see where you might be going with this but rented GA aircraft covers a lot of territory. Not sure what you mean by "sport aircraft", that's not mentioned in the survey.

It seems that you would want to control for aircraft type to compare commercial house rules versus GA decision-making. Calling missed at VDP might be more related to aircraft type than house rules.

It seems like it would make more sense if you just asked the question, would pilots continue at MDA if not constrained by house rules? Identifying the aircraft type might reveal if the house rule is well supported by pilot opinion in a given type.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Too many choices. 1/5 on yelp. I know what a vdp is but i fly just high enough to not hit the squirrels in the head, i would never climb to my vdp. Yes scheduled service. They paid for a ride didnt they.

 

[Nick]

The survey requires your e-mail address, you still interested?

Sure.

Spam folder if something gets annoying.

If a survey needs my social security number, I'll probably opt out though.

 

[Giannipilota]

Dear Nick,

I would like to reassure you and other colleagues.

I attach an example of what Google provides me:
1 - a cake with percentages
2 - The list of answers with relative percentage
3 - For each answer it displays what the choices have been, and at the end the date and time.
Nothing else!
As already stressed, the purpose is not knowing what Nick responded, but obtaining, through the percentages, as the pilots behave in general, if they were in that situation.

Question: Is it useful?
Reply; I think so.
Taking the attached cake; We imagine, for example, that the response with 45.5% is the right one; All the others, for a total of 54.5%, are incorrect.
Is not the case to deepen, in the general interest, what is the objectively better procedure to comply with the authority, and flight safety organizations, dictates ?

We will have to wait a few days to make sure we have received the maximum number of answers (and this is in all of you), then I will give you my study.
Even if you are convinced that the solution that will prove to you what exact is incorrect for you, maybe you can objectively rethink if you really actually your point of view is the best.

All this with the utmost modesty on my part.
Ciao

 

[Giannipilota]

A good number of readers have already taken part in the survey.
I would like to thank these first participants and invite others to follow their example.
The higher the number of answers, the more precise the results will be.
It is a study that I find interesting and useful;I'll be waiting.
Thanks.
Gianni

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

They paid for a ride didnt they.

They bought their tickets. They knew would they were getting into. I say let 'em crash.

 

[Old Pete]

I see where you might be going with this but rented GA aircraft covers a lot of territory. Not sure what you mean by "sport aircraft", that's not mentioned in the survey.

It seems that you would want to control for aircraft type to compare commercial house rules versus GA decision-making. Calling missed at VDP might be more related to aircraft type than house rules.

It seems like it would make more sense if you just asked the question, would pilots continue at MDA if not constrained by house rules? Identifying the aircraft type might reveal if the house rule is well supported by pilot opinion in a given type.

I think where he’s going with this is the missed approach segment. If the missed calls for an immediate turn, and you start the turn at the VDP rather than the MAP, the TERPS may not protect you. You can start your climb at the VDP, but don’t start the turn until the MAP.

 

[Old Pete]

Being a child of the magenta, If the airplane says “Minimums” before my eagle eyed FO says “something something in sight” I push the GA button and then watch the magic happen.

 

[Fixtur]

It is my understanding thatVDPs are there to be helpful, but aren't regulatory.

The regulation is to not descend below the MDA until the runway environment is in sight, and you are in a position to land using normal maneuvers.

It could be argued that past the VDP a jet is outside the envelope of "normal maneuvers" for a straight-in. This is not the the case in a light GA aircraft, where the MAP is well within the capability of plane and pilot to descend and land using normal maneuvers.

If it weren't for this, (and secondary mins), I'd almost never be able to land in coastal New England in early summer fog.

Fix

 

[MikeD]

It is my understanding thatVDPs are there to be helpful, but aren't regulatory.

The regulation is to not descend below the MDA until the runway environment is in sight, and you are in a position to land using normal maneuvers.

It could be argued that past the VDP a jet is outside the envelope of "normal maneuvers" for a straight-in. This is not the the case in a light GA aircraft, where the MAP is well within the capability of plane and pilot to descend and land using normal maneuvers.

If it weren't for this, (and secondary mins), I'd almost never be able to land in coastal New England in early summer fog.

Fix

It depends what the VDP is set for glidepath angle-wise. You can compute your own VDP easily too if one isn’t depicted for a particular non-precision approach and you want one as a reference. All youd need is a method of identifying it, but it’s the standard Gus wears a hat and that value subtracted.

 

[Space Monkey]

Dear Colleagues,

I am a Retired Airline Captain, who's doing a study on the use of the Visual Descent Point.

I kindly ask you to participate in an anonymous survey that I uploaded in "Google Forms".

With the first click you go to Visual Descent Point Survey

With the second click you can choose the answer you think is correct.

The scenario is as follows: you are on your company's aircraft, in a NPA ( non-precision approach ). When you arrive at the VDP, your visibility allows you to see the terrain, but not the approach lights or the Runway.

With the third click you can respond to the same question, but in a different scenario: you are on a sport aircraft, either owned or rented, and your free choice is not subject to your company's procedures.

With the fourth click (on the coloured button at the bottom left), you submit your answers.

It will only take a few minutes, but your answers will be very useful for this in-depth study.

Thank you for your cooperation.

You should ALWAYS be safe!!! Most accidents happen during landing. Landings are dangerous. Therefore, you should NEVER land!!!!

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

It is my understanding thatVDPs are there to be helpful, but aren't regulatory.

That's essentially correct. The VDP - whether charted or calculated - is to assist with the part of the regulation which says

The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;

i think of it as the "sweet spot" for the visual portion of an approach with an MDA.

(I looked at the survey but didn't answer. Too many English errors for a scholarly inquiry makes me suspicious. "Instrumental approach"? Sorry.)

 

[BobDDuck]

(I looked at the survey but didn't answer. Too many English errors for a scholarly inquiry makes me suspicious. "Instrumental approach"? Sorry.)
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Unrelated note (see what I did there?)...

This has pretty much become the standard level in most grad schools programs. My wife sits on a few student's thesis committees each year, and seeing some of the output is pretty sad.