NROTC or Army WOFT?

[Capt.Morgan]

Hey everybody! I'm new to this site but I was wondering you guys could help me with a dilemma I'm having? I just submitted my Marine Corps NROTC Scholarship application and I'm currently working on my Army WOFT packet. I should have it submitted in June but when it comes down to deciding on which one to go with, I'm unsure. My overall goal is to become a military helicopter pilot and I know that if I get the scholarship, I'll definitely go with that. So my dilemma I need your guy's advice with, is which one should I choose if I don't get the scholarship but get into WOFT; Option A) Go Marine Corps NROTC and have to pay for college on my own and compete for a flight spot but earn a degree or B) Go Army WOFT and become a pilot but I wont be able to go to college. Sorry If its lengthy, just had to squeeze in every detail. Oh I know how competitive it is to get into the army woft program so I know my chances are slim but my packet is pretty good! Thank you for everything!

 

[Lawman]

Ok....

1. Army WOFT isn't competitive, it's that recruiters don't want to do the leg work. If you can knock a 270 pft and have a good gt score etc, you pretty much have to have a character or medical flaw to fail you. Seriously, the Army while downsizing is growing aviation so they need you.

2. If you have an option between Army WOFT and any other services aviation go the hell somewhere else. Look I love what I do in the Army and all that, but the Army has over a decade managed to systemically find a way to kill the pride, ownership in training, and position in the decision making process of Warrant officers. They've also figured out you can be a leader too... But at 2/3 the cost. So now we are suddenly doing jobs way outside the entire point of being a warrant and telling us that's because we are "leaders" now. You will be a leader when it suits them, and you will be manual labor the rest of the time.

 

[Nark]

Find a guard unit.

 

[dustoff17]

You have to take what @Lawman has written to heart. The Army Warrant Officer has changed dramatically over the years and there isn't a lot of sunshine on the back side of this change. I love the Army and the positions I held but if I were faced with an opportunity to fly in another branch, I would choose the latter.

IMO: If you want to fly helicopters you should SERIOUSLY consider the Coast Guard....

 

[Lawman]

You have to take what @Lawman has written to heart. The Army Warrant Officer has changed dramatically over the years and there isn't a lot of sunshine on the back side of this change. I love the Army and the positions I held but if I were faced with an opportunity to fly in another branch, I would choose the latter.

IMO: If you want to fly helicopters you should SERIOUSLY consider the Coast Guard....

Yeah that's kinda my big point.

The Army is in transition with a new cultural push called 2020, and for us Warrant Officer 2020 is the koolaid being served. The ones of us that are getting to bridge the past to the new change and can see what's happening don't typically have anything but bleak expectations of what's to come.


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[dustoff17]

I think all this crap started when the WOs were brought under the COs "education system" (or at least this is how they sold it). Right after that, we seemed to move from technical leaders to the "extra duty" pool.

When we lost the WO insignia, I knew things were going to get ugly......

I miss the "squashed bug"......

 

[Lawman]

I think all this crap started when the WOs were brought under the COs "education system" (or at least this is how they sold it). Right after that, we seemed to move from technical leaders to the "extra duty" pool.

When we lost the WO insignia, I knew things were going to get ugly......

I miss the "squashed bug"......

Doesn't help when the whole "Warrant Officer Corps" is looked at with perceived disgust by the senior Warrant in the Army.

Like dude if you're not gonna fight for it, we are done.


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[Ian_J]

Doesn't help when the whole "Warrant Officer Corps" is looked at with perceived disgust by the senior Warrant in the Army.

Like dude if you're not gonna fight for it, we are done.


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You better start saluting those CW3s...

All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and
recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between
officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with
personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States. The junior person shall
salute first. Accompanying the rendering of the hand salute with an
appropriate greeting such as, "Good Morning, Sir" or "Good Morning, Ma'am"
is encouraged.

Field Grade and Senior Field Warrant Officers must assume the lead role in
eliminating the perception that warrant officers can be selective when it
comes to enforcing regulations. The Army leadership expects our cohort to
keep pace with its operational requirements and to be fully supportive of
its regulations, policies and, procedures. As the Army postures for future
requirements, it is important that we as a cohort keep pace by assessing our
strengths and by identifying where we need to change.

Now is the time to correct this negative behavior and truly steward the Army
Profession.

 

[dustoff17]

You better start saluting those CW3s...

This MIGHT work if you're duty is in the motor pool where you may have one or two running around. In aviation, this is a monumental waste of time and energy.....

 

[Ian_J]

This MIGHT work if you're duty is in the motor pool where you may have one or two running around. In aviation, this is a monumental waste of time and energy.....

Hey, that's your Chief saying that! He's an Aviator too!

Next thing you know they'll have 2LTs saluting 1LTs.

 

[Lawman]

You better start saluting those CW3s...

The entire argument to this is F'ing ridiculous.

"We don't enforce discipline in customs and courtesy and that's why the rest of the army is indisciplined!"

Yeah BS

1. For starters the E9s screaming about that are the same ones that say Sir through there teeth or just say "Chief" or don't demand that soldiers demonstrate any disciple when speaking to Warrants, just the commander and their NCOs.

2. I'd invite them to take a look at the Marine Corps. There is nobody in this world that would make the argument that the Army is a more disciplined branch of service than the Marines... yet in the Marine Corps "bars don't salute bars" is an unspoken standard. I shouldn't even say it's unspoken because it was flat told to officer candidates and Brown field, don't expect as a 2LT or 1LT that ancient CW3 to salute you and don't you dare try to correct him on it. So if those standards are allowed in a far more disciplined organization than the Army could ever hope to be, maybe trying to radically change a culture that was designed and molded through decades of pulling the cart in combat isn't the way to fix all the Army's problems.


We are a warrant officer Corps. We are designed to be the Army's Angry truth torpedo and provide that commander with a long term engaged tool of his organization that can impart wisdom and carry out their intent with efficiency and little oversight. My job is to use that experience to mentor and guide a cadre of officers who get half the effective time and experience to learn of their other branch peers due to the fact that the Army fails to understand Aviation is and should be treated different. I'm the voice of experience in a 3 shop full of guys figuring out for the first time how to run an exercise. I'm the one that's holding back an overzealous commander from flying his men and equipment into the ground because they don't know what the limitations of both are. I'm the one person with the total sight picture that commander never has or leaves as soon as he finally builds it because of the nature of RLO "total officer" assignments and PME.

We are not supposed to be 2/3 pay captains who are culpable when put in charge or substituted for leadership when it suits the requirement, but ignored due to the fact we aren't "real officers/commanders" (no kidding heard a battalion commander say that to a group of captains).

If you want me to do that job, fine, but I'm taking the bars to go with it.


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[MikeD]

Ok....

2. If you have an option between Army WOFT and any other services aviation go the hell somewhere else. Look I love what I do in the Army and all that, but the Army has over a decade managed to systemically find a way to kill the pride, ownership in training, and position in the decision making process of Warrant officers. They've also figured out you can be a leader too... But at 2/3 the cost. So now we are suddenly doing jobs way outside the entire point of being a warrant and telling us that's because we are "leaders" now. You will be a leader when it suits them, and you will be manual labor the rest of the time.

And the MW-4..........and eventually CW-5......was born.

The Army couldn't just have CW-4s at 16 years with nothing to hold above their heads to keep them in line for the next 4 years.

 

[MikeD]

Find a guard unit.

Which are these days, not much different from active duty, including the BS.

 

[Nark]

Which are these days, not much different from active duty, including the BS.

I agree and disagree. I suppose my experience (as a military aviator) is limited to Guard Aviation only. I'm of the opinion that I'm paid to be a PI (PC next week...)
We're also short of LT's however as lawman said above, our command climate doesn't require the WO's to be 2/3 pay LT's.

I've been fortunate in that respect.
However, It's amazing the cringe EVERYONE gets when they are required to go back to Ft Rucker. I don't know if its because TRADOC, or that really is the active army climate.

Like I shortly said above, Guard is good for my expectations. I have zero desires to return to active duty. I won't even entertain AGR or Tech.

 

[Ian_J]

If you want me to do that job, fine, but I'm taking the bars to go with it.

I know you understand - or hope you understand - the above wasn't MY argument. I admit I like to poke fun at the Army's Angry truth torpedos (totally stealing that line) but I get where you're coming from.

Here's what I want from my Warrant Officers:

- Be a pilot in command or be working your ass off on becoming one.
- Once a PC, become tracked.
- Once tracked, be very, very good at it. That "technical expert" thing shouldn't just be a slogan.
- Advise the leadership on all the things you're an expert at. But realize your scope is narrow while the commander's is broad. Your advise won't always be followed.
- Train your LTs to be the future commanders you want to have. And train them to be effective PCs and AMCs in the future.
- If you aren't the unit SP or unit Safety Officer, you're going to get an additional duty. Just do it. You have the time.
- Work. This isn't the Airlines. You can't argue you want to go home at 1300 because you aren't flying while simultaneously arguing you shouldn't do an additional duty.

My thoughts on Warrant Officers above the company level.
- Absolutely 1000 pay grades above me, but Warrants should stay at the company level for WAY longer than they are currently. There should be nothing wrong with multiple CW4s in a company.
- Battalions and above should only have warrants fill warrant MTOE positions. I don't see why a Battalion needs more than an SP, Safety, AMSO, and Maintenance Warrant.
- I'm unsure of the usefulness of "Command Warrant Officers" at the Brigade and higher echelons. Maybe that's a good thing - I don't know.
- I think smart warrants as LNOs in maneuver battalions is a good thing.
- Warrant officer promotions should be tied to what their primary war-fighting function is. (See CW4s in the company above).

Regarding Aviation Warrant PME:
- Seriously - there's nothing about flying, planning, executing, or anything in WO PME? I quiz all my guys who come back from the advanced course, ILE, and the staff course and wow... not much there about real-world operations.

I could go on all day, but bottom line if you give me a tracked PC who is good at what they do, that's a WO I'd want in my unit.

 

[MikeD]

I agree and disagree. I suppose my experience (as a military aviator) is limited to Guard Aviation only. I'm of the opinion that I'm paid to be a PI (PC next week...)
We're also short of LT's however as lawman said above, our command climate doesn't require the WO's to be 2/3 pay LT's.

I've been fortunate in that respect.
However, It's amazing the cringe EVERYONE gets when they are required to go back to Ft Rucker. I don't know if its because TRADOC, or that really is the active army climate.

Like I shortly said above, Guard is good for my expectations. I have zero desires to return to active duty. I won't even entertain AGR or Tech.

Im talking in general. The Guard I joined in the early 90s, is far different than the Guard of today in terms of overall culture. The Guard of today is active duty lite, they've essentially been forced to be. Started when the Guard figured out that they can get BRACd just like active duty, and got worse post 9/11. Since the Guard is all about days and dollars, they figured out real quick that they better meet the "3 R's": Ready/Relevant/Reliable, or risk not having a unit essentially when their iron goes away or gets changed by Big green/blue. Very quick, you saw the BS of active duty start to seep into units as they strove for these 3 R's.....happened quicker with the Reserve as they're federal, but the Guard wasn't far behind. Now, the Guard eats the same crap sandwiches the AD does, sometimes even more, as was seen with numerous units in their Afghan/Iraq deployments.

Juniors and even most mid-level ranks in the Guard right now never saw what the Guard was back in the day lifestyle and culture-wise, and hence have little baseline to compare today to.

 

[Lawman]

I know you understand - or hope you understand - the above wasn't MY argument. I admit I like to poke fun at the Army's Angry truth torpedos (totally stealing that line) but I get where you're coming from.
.

Like everything else in the Army, I didn't invent it. I stole it and made it mine. And no I don't think you are arguing for this disaster of a plane we are on.

Here's what I want from my Warrant Officers:

- Be a pilot in command or be working your ass off on becoming one.
- Once a PC, become tracked.
- Once tracked, be very, very good at it. That "technical expert" thing shouldn't just be a slogan

.

This is where we need to get over the idea of everybody is a winner and can people and tell them they suck early. It seems the only place where your performance will truly kill you is the special ops community. Everybody tracks, and outside IP there is little in quality control to make sure the people that track are good for the position and care about it enough to get better. I don't know how many times I've seen or heard "well he's good for safety but not IP/MX" because a guy is lazy/dumb. If he isn't good for one why the hell are they still here.

While we are at it. Bring back specialist ranks, and make corporal mean something. This "everybody is a leader" mantra neglects that some people should not be leaders. Making everybody E5s is why we have the discipline problem we have today.

- Train your LTs to be the future commanders you want to have. And train them to be effective PCs and AMCs in the future.
.

I think we've got that priority backwards. The Infantry seems to understand pretty well that a platoon leader is not a trigger puller, he is a quarterback. Too long I've spent time wasted trying to teach a PL or worse a commander how to be the best back Seater they can be because they want/need to make PC when they lack the SA from the front seat to be an AMC or the knowledge of the planning process to understand what an AMC needs to be in a linear fight (the hard one we keep pretending we will never do). Cody screwed us when he put the requirement on line troop commanders because it took away from their real role in a 4-8 ship fight, running the actual fight.

- I think smart warrants as LNOs in maneuver battalions is a good thing

.

This is where the Army truly screws it's self and it's the RLO/commanders fault directly. Nobody wants to play on game day without their starters. And maybe it's because you don't have the manning without your full roster but who do we always send to be LNOs or do the CPX.... RL2 nobody. The greatest effect a stellar warrant can have is outside the aviation formation and we piss that away every chance we get. In an aviation unit that guy is one of a dozen stellar performers, but outside he is the one guy/girl that represents all of aviation to that ground task force commander. Putting an assclown in front of that Brigade Cdr does nothing for our reputation and it leaves the Squadron/Battalion 3 shop with whatever disaster they have to work with when they get an oporder for an air assault/deep attack. "Hey 1LT Smith said this was good! What do you mean you can't work with this!? We already coordinated everything else, make due, rehearsal is 2100 z at the Brigade TOC."



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[scoobs]

Ok....

1. Army WOFT isn't competitive, it's that recruiters don't want to do the leg work. If you can knock a 270 pft and have a good gt score etc, you pretty much have to have a character or medical flaw to fail you. Seriously, the Army while downsizing is growing aviation so they need you.

2. If you have an option between Army WOFT and any other services aviation go the hell somewhere else. Look I love what I do in the Army and all that, but the Army has over a decade managed to systemically find a way to kill the pride, ownership in training, and position in the decision making process of Warrant officers. They've also figured out you can be a leader too... But at 2/3 the cost. So now we are suddenly doing jobs way outside the entire point of being a warrant and telling us that's because we are "leaders" now. You will be a leader when it suits them, and you will be manual labor the rest of the time.

You just described every person on Baseops who flies in the AF.

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[scoobs]

Which are these days, not much different from active duty, including the BS.

Seems like AD lite is what makes the Guard/Reserve desirable.

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[Lawman]

You just described every person on Baseops who flies in the AF.

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Is it bad that I wish I'd joined the Navy? Mostly so a Coast Guard transition wouldn't feel so weird to apply for?


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