Nap time

[invadertim]

Someone really should be minding the store…

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/asia/batik-air-pilots-asleep-indonesia-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[Skåning]

Reminds me of the Mesa guys who zonked out and almost got wet

Bombardier CRJ200 that flew past its destination airport, General Lyman Field in Hilo, Hawaii, after its pilots fell asleep at the controls during a February 18 revenue flight. ATC repeatedly attempted to contact the crew for more than 18 minutes, as the airplane flew over Maui, crossed the big island of Hawaii and headed southeast over the Pacific Ocean. The airplane traveled 26 nm beyond its intended destination airport before the flight crew responded.

FAA Suspended Slumbering Go! Pilots | AIN

The FAA suspended the two pilots who fell asleep during a scheduled flight for Mesa Air Group’s Hawaiian subsidiary Go! earlier this year for careless and

www.ainonline.com

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Reminds me of the Mesa guys who zonked out and almost got wet

FAA Suspended Slumbering Go! Pilots | AIN

The FAA suspended the two pilots who fell asleep during a scheduled flight for Mesa Air Group’s Hawaiian subsidiary Go! earlier this year for careless and

www.ainonline.com

How do you fall asleep on a 20 minute flight?

 

[🦈💜]

How do you fall asleep on a 20 minute flight?

Flown for a regional lately? They can call us at 3am, have us report at 5, work us fourteen hours past that, extend to sixteen, put us in a hotel for 9.5 and do it again the next day for like ... six days straight.

To the companies, the numbers in 117 are targets—"if you're not clackin', yer slackin."

I can totally see falling asleep on a 20 minute flight.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Flown for a regional lately? They can call us at 3am, have us report at 5, work us fourteen hours past that, extend to sixteen, put us in a hotel for 9.5 and do it again the next day for like ... six days straight.

To the companies, the numbers in 117 are targets—"if you're not clackin', yer slackin."

I can totally see falling asleep on a 20 minute flight.

I was OG regional rest rules. Pre-117.

Try SCHEDULED (reduced) rest of 8 hrs. Block in 10pm, released 1015pm, report 615am, block out 645am. If you had a reduced rest, then “compensatory rest” the next night was 11 hrs. Normal rest was 9 hrs. That 8 hr rest started 15 min after blocking. Often we would still at the airport or in the van. Similarly, in the morning. We routinely got a best case of 5 hrs of sleep, 6 if we were lucky.

Not to mention, those days were “legal to start, legal to finish.” Scheduled block time of 7:55 for the day? Didn’t matter if you held 45 minutes extra on one flight and/or a 1 hr taxi out. You started the day with 7:55 block so you were legal to continue the day regardless.


Part 117 rest rules are a Princess schedule compared to pre-117 BS we lived under.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Btw, you’re SFO based right? Does that SKYW flying mean only UEX colors or do you originate AS flying there too?

 

[🦈💜]

I was OG regional rest rules. Pre-117.

Try SCHEDULED (reduced) rest of 8 hrs. Block in 10pm, released 1015pm, report 615am, block out 645am. If you had a reduced rest, then “compensatory rest” the next night was 11 hrs. Normal rest was 9 hrs. That 8 hr rest started 15 min after blocking. Often we would still at the airport or in the van. Similarly, in the morning. We routinely got a best case of 5 hrs of sleep, 6 if we were lucky.

Oh, I'm familiar. I didn't work under those rules, but I'm just saying that 117 isn't exactly great at protecting crews. I can't remember if the Mesa incident was pre- or post-117. Effectively, it hasn't changed much, in that regard.

Not to mention, those days were “legal to start, legal to finish.” Scheduled block time of 7:55 for the day? Didn’t matter if you held 45 minutes extra on one flight and/or a 1 hr taxi out. You started the day with 7:55 block so you were legal to continue the day regardless.

Yeah ... it's not too far off of that now, generally speaking. Extensions are automatic, after all. Fatigue is the only recourse. (The FAA caved)

Part 117 rest rules are a Princess schedule compared to pre-117 BS we lived under.

They're actually really not, for all operators. The regionals, at least, have found a way to exploit all the loopholes, get all of the right interpretations, and "optimize" the schedules. (And abuse the hell out of the word "unplanned.")

 

[🦈💜]

Btw, you’re SFO based right? Does that SKYW flying mean only UEX colors or do you originate AS flying there too?

UA, AS, AA and DL.

Mostly UA and AS. I do a LOT of AS flying.

 

[ShortField]

I was OG regional rest rules. Pre-117.

Try SCHEDULED (reduced) rest of 8 hrs. Block in 10pm, released 1015pm, report 615am, block out 645am. If you had a reduced rest, then “compensatory rest” the next night was 11 hrs. Normal rest was 9 hrs. That 8 hr rest started 15 min after blocking. Often we would still at the airport or in the van. Similarly, in the morning. We routinely got a best case of 5 hrs of sleep, 6 if we were lucky.

Not to mention, those days were “legal to start, legal to finish.” Scheduled block time of 7:55 for the day? Didn’t matter if you held 45 minutes extra on one flight and/or a 1 hr taxi out. You started the day with 7:55 block so you were legal to continue the day regardless.


Part 117 rest rules are a Princess schedule compared to pre-117 BS we lived under.

Always on brand. Don’t change my guy.

 

[Ian_J]

Extensions are automatic, after all. Fatigue is the only recourse. (The FAA caved)

Is that true… FAA-wise I mean? For us the crew has to agree to the extension and if we don’t, there’s no downside. I for some reason thought that was the regulation.

 

[poser765]

Is that true… FAA-wise I mean? For us the crew has to agree to the extension and if we don’t, there’s no downside. I for some reason thought that was the regulation.

So your duty limit can extend 30 minutes for unforeseen circumstances without needing any kind of approval. For the no joke 2 hour extension consent is required.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Is that true… FAA-wise I mean? For us the crew has to agree to the extension and if we don’t, there’s no downside. I for some reason thought that was the regulation.

Yeah, I am wondering what sort of fibs the company is telling her pilot group. I am intimately involved in the fatigue program and am buried in 117. That's not how it works here.

 

[🦈💜]

Is that true… FAA-wise I mean? For us the crew has to agree to the extension and if we don’t, there’s no downside. I for some reason thought that was the regulation.

Yes.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357_-1-_2014_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

The established interpretation, at this point, is that the PIC isn't concurring with whether the extension is a good idea, she is concurring that the extension is otherwise legal. Fitness for duty is addressed elsewhere, and falls to the PIC to establish. Anything else falls into the category of "labor relations."

Oh, and calling fatigued can result in disciplinary proceedings, as per the FAA:

So there's that.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Oh, I'm familiar. I didn't work under those rules, but I'm just saying that 117 isn't exactly great at protecting crews. I can't remember if the Mesa incident was pre- or post-117. Effectively, it hasn't changed much, in that regard.



Yeah ... it's not too far off of that now, generally speaking. Extensions are automatic, after all. Fatigue is the only recourse. (The FAA caved)



They're actually really not, for all operators. The regionals, at least, have found a way to exploit all the loopholes, get all of the right interpretations, and "optimize" the schedules. (And abuse the hell out of the word "unplanned.")

Good point. Personally, I still think it’s better now than under the old rules. And some extensions today we can refuse, whereas that concept was nearly nonexistent in the pre-117 days.

I think today the first 30 minutes of the FDP (?) don’t need an extension, but then up to 1-2 hrs (?) afterwards do require approval.

 

[CFI A&P]

How do you fall asleep on a 20 minute flight?

I once witnessed an auto mechanic fall asleep in a customer's car driving it from the parking lot to the service bay. The vehicle was in gear, but the lip on to the lift was too much for idle to overcome.

Couldn't have been more than two minutes and 200 feet between that mechanic walking to the car, driving it into the shop and finding some REM sleep.

 

[🦈💜]

So your duty limit can extend 30 minutes for unforeseen circumstances without needing any kind of approval. For the no joke 2 hour extension consent is required.

Concurrence with the legality of the extension, not necessarily fitness for duty. The company can require you to call fatigued if you refuse an extension, and they can pursue disciplinary action, according to several LOIs. And regionals, at least, are taking extensive advantage of it.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Concurrence with the legality of the extension, not necessarily fitness for duty. The company can require you to call fatigued if you refuse an extension, and they can pursue disciplinary action, according to several LOIs. And regionals, at least, are taking extensive advantage of it.

Interesting. I need to track it to the source, but the lore currently at the air line is that while this used to be the case, it no longer is, and it is said that this was forced by the FAA. In fact, when I receive a fatigue call, I make sure that the crew is not into their FDP extension. If they are, it's not a fatigue call, full stop.

 

[🦈💜]

Yeah, I am wondering what sort of fibs the company is telling her pilot group. I am intimately involved in the fatigue program and am buried in 117. That's not how it works here.

Interesting. I need to track it to the source, but the lore currently at the air line is that while this used to be the case, it no longer is, and it is said that this was forced by the FAA. In fact, when I receive a fatigue call, I make sure that the crew is not into their FDP extension. If they are, it's not a fatigue call, full stop.

Whether I want to be or not, I'm apparently a lifer at my company at this point, and our pilot group is to ——— to vote in a union. (I was on the ALPA OC for several years, trying my best to make it happen.) So all we get is "shut up and color" from our "association," who sure as heck isn't doing any research to the contrary.

If there have been any contradicting interpretations, I would love to be corrected. (Though it won't matter operationally)

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I’ve seen a few comments along the lines of “how can this happen?”

Everyone in the industry “yup, I totally see how that could happen.”

 

[dustoff17]

How do you fall asleep on a 20 minute flight?

Oh Commies!