Nap time

[BobDDuck]

The good things about it is if you are coming up on needing an extension it doesn’t just sneak up on you. You can see that MFer coming for several hour. I’ve never been asked to extend without having talking about it at some length with the other guy v

Mostly, yes. That said, we have a few trips, especially in the winter time with strong winds, that only have 20 or 30 minute buffers at report time. Normally they will staff with a 4th pilot when it looks like it might get sketchy, but there are certainly times when you show up at the plane, discover a maintenence item, and immediately start having the discussion.

 

[poser765]

Mostly, yes. That said, we have a few trips, especially in the winter time with strong winds, that only have 20 or 30 minute buffers at report time. Normally they will staff with a 4th pilot when it looks like it might get sketchy, but there are certainly times when you show up at the plane, discover a maintenence item, and immediately start having the discussion.

Yeah that’s a good point AND a different world. I think 117 has entirely different strategies, expectations, and outcomes when talking augmented vs not augmented.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Mostly, yes. That said, we have a few trips, especially in the winter time with strong winds, that only have 20 or 30 minute buffers at report time. Normally they will staff with a 4th pilot when it looks like it might get sketchy, but there are certainly times when you show up at the plane, discover a maintenence item, and immediately start having the discussion.

We only use 117 on the few passenger flights we do, and that’s been the biggest advantage I think. On cargo 121 there’s usually a long window from report until we become illegal. The one time I’ve had a maintenance issue before a crossing with 121 it was basically “you have 90 minutes to solve this.”

 

[BobDDuck]

The real issue is that 117 was designed to be a baseline for each company to use to design their own fatigue mitigating scheduling rules, that then would be approved by the FAA. Nobody actually did it though, other than a few FRMS programs for ultra long haul segments, and instead just used the 117 rules as written. They are really good about protecting in some areas, but do a less than stellar job protecting in others. Don't get me wrong, I never want to go back to reduced rest overnights and blanket 16 hour duty days, but there are a few elements of 117 that seem to do more harm than good.

 

[///AMG]

I've only almost had to do it one time, and it was pretty laughable......as in I got the ACARS alert, and honestly it couldn't have been further from something I was thinking about (probably not a good thing, but I digress). Was getting ready to head back to SEA after a day turn to PVR from SJC. It was mid afternoon, and I guess the PVR-SEA leg was a lot longer than I had assumed. It really caught me by surprise. Did not feel fatigued at any point that day, to include my 2 hr drive home that evening.

 

[roundout]

as I’ve gotten older and more experienced. I’ve learned that when I was younger I was flying around fatigued but just didn’t recognize it.

Some simple math: if you need 8hr of sleep a night and only get 7, by the end of a week you’ve lost an entire night’s sleep.

(Shout out to all those who wake up at 0300 to commute to a 1200 show then fly till 0000. Or the corresponding fly to 0000, rack out in the crew lounge until the morning shift comes in, then get up at 0430 to commute home)

 

[Roger Roger]

as I’ve gotten older and more experienced. I’ve learned that when I was younger I was flying around fatigued but just didn’t recognize it.

Some simple math: if you need 8hr of sleep a night and only get 7, by the end of a week you’ve lost an entire night’s sleep.

(Shout out to all those who wake up at 0300 to commute to a 1200 show then fly till 0000. Or the corresponding fly to 0000, rack out in the crew lounge until the morning shift comes in, then get up at 0430 to commute home)

3 young kids at home and flying medevac night shift 2 weeks on, summertime in AK when you’re flying every night. i did 6 weeks on once, 2 weeks of days then 4 weeks of nights. Took one night off in the middle of it when our kitty passed. I don’t think I was human by the end of it.

 

[roundout]

3 young kids at home and flying medevac night shift 2 weeks on, summertime in AK when you’re flying every night. i did 6 weeks on once, 2 weeks of days then 4 weeks of nights. Took one night off in the middle of it when our kitty passed. I don’t think I was human by the end of it.

Basically dead

 

[ERfly]

as I’ve gotten older and more experienced. I’ve learned that when I was younger I was flying around fatigued but just didn’t recognize it.

Some simple math: if you need 8hr of sleep a night and only get 7, by the end of a week you’ve lost an entire night’s sleep.

(Shout out to all those who wake up at 0300 to commute to a 1200 show then fly till 0000. Or the corresponding fly to 0000, rack out in the crew lounge until the morning shift comes in, then get up at 0430 to commute home)

I don't know how our commuters do it.

Fly a week of AM hub turns. Land on Friday night and then sit in the Jumpseat lounge (no sleep rooms until after 2am for jumpseaters...they're all reserved for operating crew and standbys) until 3 or 4 am, fly however many hours it takes to get home and then drive home between 6 and 8 am. And some guys live a good distance from their home airport!

Nope! No thank you.

Is living Memphis ideal? No. Is landing at 12-1am and only having a 20 minute drive to my bed worth it? You bet it is!

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Always on brand. Don’t change my guy.

He’s more consistent than McDonald’s.

I’ve never heard of the first 30 minutes is free(just accepted). You look at your table limits and that’s it. Company asks if you want to extend.

I guess it’s a regional thing. At Endeavor, the FOM said that if you sign fit for duty, you automatically accept the 30 minute extension.

 

[roundout]

if you sign fit for duty, you automatically accept the 30 minute extension

 

[JordanD]

(Shout out to all those who wake up at 0300 to commute to a 1200 show then fly till 0000. Or the corresponding fly to 0000, rack out in the crew lounge until the morning shift comes in, then get up at 0430 to commute home)

I know it costs me a fair amount of money and time at home, but I've gotten to the point where I absolutely refuse to do this. The misery alone just isn't worth saving the money on a hotel for me.

 

[poser765]

I know it costs me a fair amount of money and time at home, but I've gotten to the point where I absolutely refuse to do this. The misery alone just isn't worth saving the money on a hotel for me.

Yeah F a bunch of that. In the regional days I tried to maximize my time at home a few times. 0400 central time alarm to make a 0600 commute. Fly to lax and hang out in the airport for until about 1500 pacific. Then start my day. Two SAN turns then up to PDX. Done done at 0030, 0230 my time. Damn near a 24 hour duty day. Did that a handful of times and realized I’m going to kill someone doing that. Not worth an extra night at home.

 

[JordanD]

Yeah F a bunch of that. In the regional days I tried to maximize my time at home a few times. 0400 central time alarm to make a 0600 commute. Fly to lax and hang out in the airport for until about 1500 pacific. Then start my day. Two SAN turns then up to PDX. Done done at 0030, 0230 my time. Damn near a 24 hour duty day. Did that a handful of times and realized I’m going to kill someone doing that. Not worth an extra night at home.

Plus with my luck I’d get delayed up until the maximum duty time, then the inevitable fatigue report would come back with “well, that’s kind of your own fault, dummy.” The hotel part is a bummer but my stress level is a lot lower. If I was getting up that early to commute same day I know I’d probably get a limited amount of crappy sleep before that 4am alarm too.

 

[🦈💜]

as I’ve gotten older and more experienced. I’ve learned that when I was younger I was flying around fatigued but just didn’t recognize it.

Yeah. If I put my schedule into a proper fatigue calculator, it would probably error out.

All I have to go by is "I feel no worse than usual, and if I called out for every 3am wakeup, they'd just straight-up fire me."

Some simple math: if you need 8hr of sleep a night and only get 7, by the end of a week you’ve lost an entire night’s sleep.

I promise I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining, but I'm on permanent AM reserve (3am to 3pm), and I regularly get worked well into the evening. I'm nocturnal by nature, and my normal sleep time is ~0600 - ~1300. I really feel lucky if I get 5+ hours during a work block.

I can't tell you the number of miserable nights where I've been laying in bed, wide awake, at 0100, check my schedule, and see a 0500 show. If I ever seem like I'm losing my emotional equilibrium about work issues, it's mostly that.

(Shout out to all those who wake up at 0300 to commute to a 1200 show then fly till 0000. Or the corresponding fly to 0000, rack out in the crew lounge until the morning shift comes in, then get up at 0430 to commute home)

Don't even need a commute to do that! With an hour and a half drive to work:

3am callout -> 5am show:
Table B up to 4 segments: 5am + 12 hours + 4: 9pm, or:
RAP + 16 = 7pm. Extended by two hours: 9pm.

45 minutes to get to your vehicle in the parking lot / garage, an hour and a half to get home, and it's almost midnight.

(But it's ok, they'll adjust your show time for the next day from 06:55 to 07:00. 07:00 - :30 (parking garage to inside security) - 1:30 (drive) - :30 (getting ready to go) means you get a whole four hours of sleep, if you can skip eating, showering, or uniform maintenance.)

(And yes, this pretty well describes my schedule, except my drive to work is only about 40 minutes, mostly because I ride a motorcycle)

That said, if I'm fatigued and know it, I do call fatigued. Being proud of not calling in fatigued or sick is, frankly, toxic and stupid. But I can't call in fatigued every time I'm exhausted.

It's a good thing people are excellent at determining whether they're fatigued.

Oh. Oh, wait.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

@Acrofox 2:30 RAP goes junior?


At our shop (at least in LA), LCR is most senior but of the short call RAPs, the next most senior/popular is the 230AM.

Like you, I'm a nocturnal guy. I like the latest RAP, 5-7pm.

Earliest report at our base is 5am. I don't like those, but some of them do make for productive trips (eg, 15 hr block 2-day).

 

[🦈💜]

@Acrofox 2:30 RAP goes junior?

At our shop (at least in LA), LCR is most senior but of the short call RAPs, the next most senior/popular is the 230AM.

I don't know if this is how it is at your company, but I, for one, get called every single reserve day, usually right at 3am. I've had fewer than ten days of reserve that I didn't work since coming back to my company. (We get 10-11 days off per month, the rest is reserve)

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't know if this is how it is at your company, but I, for one, get called every single reserve day, usually right at 3am. I've had fewer than ten days of reserve that I didn't work since coming back to my company. (We get 10-11 days off per month, the rest is reserve)

We're overstaffed. I'm surprised we haven't downgraded yet.

 

[Skåning]

since coming back to my company

Dont mean to rub salt, but what schedules could you hold if you had stayed?

 

[🦈💜]

Dont mean to rub salt, but what schedules could you hold if you had stayed?

Much better schedules. I was about 35% company wide.

However, it was already pretty rough when I left. I left for my health. But this is a whole new level of suck, for at least another two years at this rate.