Mom and pop flight school problems...

A friend who use to work there highly recommended the school to me. I did do my due diligence in research prior to signing up. Besides, at that point I didnt have a better alternative. If Im a paying customer, Im not going to let a business use profanity to critique my abilities or tell me how it is. I dont wish to go into the details over what was said or how I was treated, but I was not treated like a customer. I put up with it for some time but it built up and last week I decided not to take it anymore.

How should a student be treated? What is acceptable and non acceptable treatment? Or should a student be so submissive since the school and instructor are doing the student a favor?
Im not sure how to answer those since I tried to ignore the negatives and just focus on my goals. I highly believe having an instructor that you are comfortable with and get along with makes all the difference. I dont believe I am a difficult person to get along with or to train. Finding the right instructor is almost like finding the right girl to marry.
 
I feel like this is a canned response to a situation like the OPs and kind of out in left field. When the amount of money involved is as high as flying usually entails, every flight school or CFI needs to put up with students unless the student is making derogatory remarks or causing serious issues that affect the safety and business of the flight school.

Last time I checked, the student is paying the CFI and the CFI usually depends on that money for his/her livelihood...(in most cases, not all) The flight school is also getting the student's hard earned money ( Quite a lot of it too!) which most likely is greatly needed by the flight school to stay in business. Since in both these cases the student is raising the CFI's paycheck and keeping the flight school in business....(indirectly in most cases) both parties furnishing the services to the student need to realize what they are getting and deal with the student no matter how little of a people person the student may be.


I don't mean to be rude to anyone but too many people are getting this attitude like they don't have to treat customers with respect when in fact said customer is making it possible for the business to pay their bills.

I think you kind of missed my point entirely. This has nothing to money or who's paying the bills.

I've spent a few hours around hanging around flight schools and dealing with people. Once I had a student ask me as we were walking out to the plane why the line guys and girls in the office always seemed distant and short with him? And I flat out told him, "beacuse you're rude to them". He would always demand things, never said "thank you", questioned every tenth of ground on his invoice, and would get irritated if you didn't drop what you were doing that second (never mind if I was with another student on their dime) to take care of HIS problem. The funny thing was, to him, WE were the jerks! Oh, and he went through every CFI we had in the place...

Just because you're giving someone your money doesn't automatically make you right. Good business comes from both sides of the counter.


Back to to OP:

I'm not in any way saying you're THIS guy. Some students just need to take a good look in the mirror sometimes and realize the experience they have is a direct result of THEIR actions. At the end of the day I'm still the same CFI who has a job to do & paycheck to earn. Each student is an individual and how they want the relationship to go is up to them. Some students I'm good friends with, others I never hear from again.

As far as the profanity goes... One of the best instructors I had swore like a sailor. Some call it a flaw, but to me it was just who he was. Its amazing how well you remember things if there's an F-bomb in front of it! I knew he wasn't kidding around. Yelling at, or using profanity to belittle a student is simply uncalled for. No one should put up with that, not even if the instruction is free.

Some students can confuse constructive criticism with belittlement and may not like the way the CFI delivers it. Well, some CFIs just don't believe in sugar coating. If you screwed up, you screwed up... Go back, fix it & do better next time. If you're sensitive to that sort of thing & want to be a career pilot I don't know what to tell you... Captains, company instructors, and company check-airmen aren't being paid to hold your hand and be nice to you. Most are decent human beings, but there's always the select few. BTW, it'll be this environment you'll likely see at the 141 schools & rating mills...

By the time you're training to be a commercial pilot, you're in charge of you're training. It's the CFI's job to provide the learning structure and the signatures. At this point you should be able to do most studying on your own while taking notes and asking questions. Oh, and don't blame the airplane.

Just do what it takes to get it done ASAP.
 
Just another thought....at least what i think the contributing factor was at the place i got my private from was immaturity. For a lot of the CFIs there, this was their very first job other than maybe working the desk at the FBO. Daddy paid for all their ratings, so you get that richy rich biatch thing going....bossing around a bunch of 45 year old weekend warriors, strutting around in their van huesen aviator shirt; its just a cocktail for ego. I'm leaning towards the OP's stance with a kind of "the customer's always right" approach. You know what i'd do? Look em up on yelp and clown on every single one of them. You're probably not the only one that feels the way you do. :)
 
I did my primary training at a 141 university school, my CFI through American Flyers, and then instructed for 1 1/2 years, concurrently, at 3 different Part 61 schools in the Austin area. For my money the best instruction I ever saw was at AF. I went to the one in Addison and can't say enough about their curriculum, instructors, and staff. The FAA CFI initial checkride wasn't a cakewalk, but because of the preparation I had, I count it among the easiest checkrides I've taken. Best of luck finishing up!
 
When the amount of money involved is as high as flying usually entails, every flight school or CFI needs to put up with students unless the student is making derogatory remarks or causing serious issues that affect the safety and business of the flight school.

I keep reading this thinking you made a typo, if so disregard...
If a student had a poor attitude or if I just didn't like the guy, he would be off my list and handed over to a noob instructor.
You do not want a instructor to "put up" with anything. Because if I or any instructor has to "put up" with you, you can bet the quality of instruction will not be there. If CFIs do have to "put up" with a student, then that student better hope for a noob CFI cause he will have no idea what works and will excitedly throw the kitchen sink at the problem to see what sticks.

I think lots of my posts come off as me being angry. This isn't angry. This is just my matter-of-fact way of telling my experience.
 
I keep reading this thinking you made a typo, if so disregard...
If a student had a poor attitude or if I just didn't like the guy, he would be off my list and handed over to a noob instructor.
You do not want a instructor to "put up" with anything. Because if I or any instructor has to "put up" with you, you can bet the quality of instruction will not be there. If CFIs do have to "put up" with a student, then that student better hope for a noob CFI cause he will have no idea what works and will excitedly throw the kitchen sink at the problem to see what sticks.

I think lots of my posts come off as me being angry. This isn't angry. This is just my matter-of-fact way of telling my experience.

I would say that "put up" wouldnt be the best words to use. I can also agree with you that if the student and the CFI cant maintain a relationship that fosters growth and learning, then there is no point for the CFI to stay with that student.

The attitude of "I just didn't like the guy" doesn't sit well with me. You were hired to do a job which was to instruct. If you don't like the guy for whatever reason....you still are obligated to see him through. Unless what he is doing is harmful or derogatory. When I worked at staples, If I didn't continue with a sell because I didn't like somebody, I would be shown the door. In all honesty, I may not be seeing where you are coming from and that is because I haven't been there yet.

I still can't quite grasp why a student having a poor attitude is a reason to give him/her away. Shouldn't a CFI being the mentor that they are sit down the student and tell him/her why having a bad attitude isn't going to help them any in flying? An integral part of working anywhere is learning to deal with and handle people you work aside or work with no matter how much you cant stand them or how much you dislike or disagree with them.

I am starting to think that a CFI/student relationship is a lot more fragile than a normal business relationship and when things hit the fan, the CFI ends up doing more of a disservice by keeping the student. If thats what you meant then I understand what you are saying.
 
I've had some problems getting the right CFI a few times. Every one of them is different, just like every flight school is different. It might take some time before you and an instructor click and are on the same page.

It sounds like you're putting a lot of artificial pressure on yourself to finish your training ASAP. My advice is to slow down, take your time, and stop putting so much pressure on yourself. Your friends that say, "you should have been hired at the airlines yesterday" are only contributing to the problem. No body knows how long hiring will last, but you won't get there without taking things one step at a time. Focus on your training right now, don't worry about how soon you can make it to the right seat instructing or in an airliner. You have to get the commercial certificate to get there.

Take this advice from someone who is running low on funds, has a commercial cert, and has been slugging through the CFI initial work for about 2 months now. I find the more pressure I put on myself to finish up, the more stressful everything becomes. Slow down and enjoy this time, focus on your short term goals. Good luck to you.
 
I am starting to think that a CFI/student relationship is a lot more fragile than a normal business relationship and when things hit the fan, the CFI ends up doing more of a disservice by keeping the student. If thats what you meant then I understand what you are saying.

Yep. But *Can* "end up doing more of a disservice". It's not set in stone but it is most likely from what I saw when I was instructing.
 
A friend who use to work there highly recommended the school to me. I did do my due diligence in research prior to signing up. Besides, at that point I didnt have a better alternative. If Im a paying customer, Im not going to let a business use profanity to critique my abilities or tell me how it is. I dont wish to go into the details over what was said or how I was treated, but I was not treated like a customer. I put up with it for some time but it built up and last week I decided not to take it anymore.

How should a student be treated? What is acceptable and non acceptable treatment? Or should a student be so submissive since the school and instructor are doing the student a favor?
Im not sure how to answer those since I tried to ignore the negatives and just focus on my goals. I highly believe having an instructor that you are comfortable with and get along with makes all the difference. I dont believe I am a difficult person to get along with or to train. Finding the right instructor is almost like finding the right girl to marry.

Where were you? Dutch Wings?
 
I would say that "put up" wouldnt be the best words to use. I can also agree with you that if the student and the CFI cant maintain a relationship that fosters growth and learning, then there is no point for the CFI to stay with that student.

The attitude of "I just didn't like the guy" doesn't sit well with me. You were hired to do a job which was to instruct. If you don't like the guy for whatever reason....you still are obligated to see him through. Unless what he is doing is harmful or derogatory. When I worked at staples, If I didn't continue with a sell because I didn't like somebody, I would be shown the door. In all honesty, I may not be seeing where you are coming from and that is because I haven't been there yet.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Flight training is not Staples. It's not as casual as walking into a retail store and buying office supplies. You know it is much more involved, and serious than that. It is also a much more personal business transaction than a retail store transaction. I think the instructor has the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason they see fit. If a student hires me to instruct him/her, and I don't like flying with him/her for any one of a number of reasons, then I don't have to fly with him/her. It's as simple as that. I am not obligated to see anyone through to completing their certificate or rating. By choosing not to fly with a student because of a personality conflict, or other reason, I think I am doing the student a favor, not a disservice. There is a way for the instructor to handle this, though, and that way is professionally.

I don't know the OP's exact situation, other than it sounds like he had a bad experience, and that's unfortunate.
 
Respect ahsmatt7? Have you ever had a student drop the aircraft keys down an air vent in a TX border town? And you wonder why Cfi's move three states away with that sassy attitude.
 
If you have all of the required hours and cross countries, then simply set aside 7 days and go to Shebles in Arizona and finish up your commerical ticket. They charge $2275 plus the examiner fee.

Joe
 
Sometimes my students really liked me sometimes they did not. Instructors move on to "real" flying jobs. Things to look out for.

If your lucky you can find a dedicated flight instructor type who has been instructing for a good amount of time.

This is the best situation but not easy to find. You must do your homework.

Sorry to hear about the OP troubles. I'm amazed I made it through training and career progression after hearing about others struggles on this forum.
 
If I could do it over again, I would go to AF, ATP, ERAU, UND, etc. without hesitation. Or....find that Part 61 instructor who is not going for the airlines and relies on his/her skills to make a living. They are out there, I have met them. Some of the best are at Santa Paula Airport in California. But there are others. Go to the SAFE site and look for MCFIs in your area.

I would NOT go to any of these places.
 
I still can't quite grasp why a student having a poor attitude is a reason to give him/her away.
I am starting to think that a CFI/student relationship is a lot more fragile than a normal business relationship and when things hit the fan, the CFI ends up doing more of a disservice by keeping the student. If thats what you meant then I understand what you are saying.
I'm sorry but you seem to be contradicting yourself here
 
I am well aware of that. At the end of my post, I wrote what you quoted because that's when I started to realize that the relationship isn't a normal business relationship....If I am not allowed to have realizations....by all means please let me know.

Also, "a poor attitude" is a general statement at best.
 
I haven't had a student drop the keys, but I did have an instructor do the same thing to me a year ago....however, he moved away in order to chase sugar plum hopes and dreams.
 
Thats funny cuz I flew with one of your CFI's and asked about you. He enlightened me on several things that really bring light to your view of the cfi student relationship. Number one: just cuz you got vectored over mexico once doesnt mean you should be logging transoceanic crossings. Two, real pilots aren't closet pittsburg pirate and steeler fans. No wonder you have the views you do, look at your hometown...the greatest export from h town is shipley donuts. Don't even hate unsat.
 
Thats funny cuz I flew with one of your CFI's and asked about you. He enlightened me on several things that really bring light to your view of the cfi student relationship. Number one: just cuz you got vectored over mexico once doesnt mean you should be logging transoceanic crossings. Two, real pilots aren't closet pittsburg pirate and steeler fans. No wonder you have the views you do, look at your hometown...the greatest export from h town is shipley donuts. Don't even hate unsat.


You're a funny guy...don't forget that I know where you live.
 
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