Mom and pop flight school problems...

[ilove747s]

So I'm in a difficult situation. I'm trying to finish my single engine commercial pilots license. The first flight school I was at, all the instructors went to airlines and only left one who was grumpy, and rude to me. I went to another school at a different airport and flew 4 flights but found the aircraft very difficult to maneuver because of its poor condition and loose control cables. I also was not being treated properly by certain people in the office who were once again very rude to me. So I'm trying to go back to the original flight school who now has an instructor that can finish me up, but his schedule is very busy as he flies corporate. I've called, left messages, and no response from the instructor. The school doesn't seem to have any motivation to keep me as a customer nor do I feel like a valued customer which is why I left in the first place...

I've blown $2,500 at mom and pop schools on instruction and training in a complex aircraft, got the 250 hours, PPL-IR and no multi time whatsoever, but don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I've either dealt with broken planes or had a hard time finding an instructor that can treat me like a human. I'm in urgent need to hurry up and finish my training so I can start instructing ASAP as money is running out.

I'm hoping to finish my commercial license within the next 30 days at this mom and pop flight school, and then go to American Flyers to complete the 30 day CFI/II program. That would have me done by the middle of November and then I'd go to Dallas to get my multi add on. In the mean time I've been studying for the FII, FOI, and FIA. Took the FII yesterday and got a 98% and I'm taking the FOI next Monday.

That's my current situation/plan. I'm a bit fed up and frustrated as you can tell at this point and almost considering just blowing every last dollar I have to go to ATP. Mom and pop schools don't seem to need customers nor have I seen them treat their customers with respect, I feel like giving up on them and never recommending that route to anyone who is doing training.

Should I just go to ATP? I realize I'd have to take an additional check ride since I don't have my multi.

Sorry for the rant. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Florida_pilot]

Hi,

Welcome to the world of flight instruction. Sorry. My story is nearly the same with so many terrible experiences that I shake my head when I think of it. I did my CFI with American Flyers and it was the best experience in training I have had. While I know there are plenty of Mom and Pop scholls that are good, there's really is no standardization so you are left with whatever the instructor feels is right. My advice: You have to do your research, in detail before ever spending a penny. And as soon as it goes "bad" pull the plug.

If I could do it over again, I would go to AF, ATP, ERAU, UND, etc. without hesitation. Or....find that Part 61 instructor who is not going for the airlines and relies on his/her skills to make a living. They are out there, I have met them. Some of the best are at Santa Paula Airport in California. But there are others. Go to the SAFE site and look for MCFIs in your area.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

I would suggest you contact american flyers and take the finish up program and then move on to the CFI

 

[at1024]

That's the drawback to most mom and pop type schools. You can get it done cheaper but if you're on some sort of timeline...forget about it. I think your very wise for choosing AF for CFI training. Some of those programs such as AF, ATP, etc. may seem a little costly at first but it will actually save you money because hopefully you will be able to start instructing quicker and making $$$. Also most of those programs are good at working with the FAA to efficiently get your checkride scheduled, which can be quite a big issue believe it or not.

 

[Douglas]

Do not go to ATP.

 

[Boris Badenov]

but found the aircraft very difficult to maneuver because of its poor condition and loose control cables.

Do what you feel, but in my experience as a CFI (long ago), the aircraft is rarely the reason people don't succeed (or don't feel that they have). Perhaps you had an instructor that wasn't doing a good job of fitting his or her instruction to your needs? Finding the right instructor for you is the single most important decision you can make, much more important than school, locale, type of aircraft, etc. People often spend all kinds of time comparing prices and equipment, but just hop in the airplane with the first guy whose schedule is open. Have you looked in to freelance instructors in your area? The puppymills will definitely get you in and out of the door most ricky-tick, but IMHO, the quality of instruction suffers...not due to bad instructors (although they exist in every type of school), but due to being handcuffed by "structure" and pressure from above. And the cost difference is extreme. Best of luck.

 

[Douglas]

Do not go to ATP.

To be more complete, there are schools that specialize in "finishing up" students.

Shebles (sp) I think is one that I've heard.

 

[ozziecat35]

Do not go to ATP.

Care to provide any insight to that? Just curious, I have nothing riding on your answer, but would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[at1024]

Do not go to ATP.

I'm curious as well. Some of my coworkers went to the local ATP here and they're all solid instructors.

 

[ilove747s]

I was flying an Arrow with the original school and found the maneuvers to be quite smooth in the aircraft. At the next school I had to drive 80 miles to fly a beaten up Cutlass 172RG. Boris, I would agree with you that it was more likely to be the instructor as to why it was not working out. From the beginning I wasn't getting on with the instructor. I'm a very flexible person when it comes to personalities and generally try to avoid any type of conflict or argument. I typically don't puff out my chest if someone says something offensive or insulting. I try to ignore it as it's not worth the energy. The flight school (that's another story), instructor and airplane were not good fits for me. I believe the aircraft also needs to have it's cables restrung or tightened up. I'd be in a right hand turn and have to fight the plane to transition to a left hand turn. After the flight I went and played with the controls of a 172RG at American Flyers and could tell a HUGE difference in response. I'm sure, even so, if I had stuck to the beaten up cutlass I would eventually get it down, but who knows in how many flights. Why waste tons of extra money trying to fly a beaten up plane when it was working out in an Arrow that I was comfortable in and could keep to PTS on most of the maneuvers.

So far as ATP is concerned, I have several friends who are preaching to me to go to ATP. "get it done"...."you need to be at the airlines yesterday"......"stop being a cheap ass and wasting time", but everyone I know who has been to ATP has failed at least one checkride and tell me they feel like they don't know anything when they come out of the program. Is that the case for everyone? Probably not. There are people who probably study really hard and remember everything, never fail a checkride and come out as superb instructors. ATP is a great program if you are trying to be done QUICK, but at what sacrifice? Knowledge, failed checkride, or $$,$$$... For me to go to ATP, I'd have to do an extra checkride and I look at as extra liability and unnecessary expense. ATP is possibly a last resort for me.

Thank you everyone for the advice. It REALLY helps. I think I'll give my current situation another week and if it's not working out, then try to work something out with American Flyers to finish up the commercial before the CFI program starts. I will probably be flying with this new guy in the Arrow on the weekend. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Also most of those programs are good at working with the FAA to efficiently get your checkride scheduled, which can be quite a big issue believe it or not.

Scheduling a CFI or CFII ride with the FAA can be a giant pain in the rear. Also some FSDO's bat a 60-80% failure rate. I think coming out of AF or a well organized CFI program will lower those percentages some.

 

[at1024]

Scheduling a CFI or CFII ride with the FAA can be a giant pain in the rear. Also some FSDO's bat a 60-80% failure rate. I think coming out of AF or a well organized CFI program will lower those percentages some.

If

Also there is the issue of airworthiness, especially with most GA aircraft because they are usually older. The FAA knows these schools and is familiar with their tail numbers when you show up for a checkride. Trust me if you show up for a CFI ride in a less than perfect aircraft that the Feds have never seen before, you WILL get the run around.

 

[ilove747s]

You guys are scaring me! :drool: I am aware of the failure rates/pass rates with the FAA/FSDO. I'll just have to be super prepared and pray for the best!

 

[ilove747s]

So far as problems with instructors that I have been having. Straight from the FOI

Which statement is true about instructors' critiques?

Correct answer is A. Before students willingly accept their instructors critique, they must first accept the instructor.

 

[tomokc]

Most people are able to research products and services before buying them (an automobile, a company's stock, a dentist, a house, lawnmowers, laptops, even fast food), so why isn't it easy to check out a flight school before signing on? Why do people accept lousy instructors? Non-airworthy aircraft? Non-standard curriculum? Why do they agree to pre-pay tuition? To accept unprofessional treatment and rude behavior? I mean, getting a PPL is expensive, time-consuming, hard, and to non-flying spouses or family members, dangerous ("You're not thinking about getting into one of those little airplanes, are you?"). For those wanting to become a career pilots, there are other options that pay better, have shorter hours and greater stability. For those becoming recreational pilots, heck, you can't find a more expensive, time-consuming, dangerous hobby than flying (unless you're flying regularly). And then to have as your first barrier an industry rife with crappy flight schools, unprofessional management, insolent instructors, and a littany of accidents and incidents. And we wonder why the number of pilots has been in decline for so long.

Sorry for the rant - I'm just disgusted with what we have all had to put up with to become - and remain - pilots.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

The first flight school I was at, all the instructors went to airlines and only left one who was grumpy, and rude to me.

I went to another school at a different airport and flew 4 flights but found the aircraft very difficult to maneuver because of its poor condition and loose control cables.

I also was not being treated properly by certain people in the office who were once again very rude to me.

So I'm trying to go back to the original flight school who now has an instructor that can finish me up, but his schedule is very busy as he flies corporate. I've called, left messages, and no response from the instructor. The school doesn't seem to have any motivation to keep me as a customer nor do I feel like a valued customer which is why I left in the first place...

The question you need to ask yourself is: Why is everyone rude to me where ever I go and why won't the CFIs return my calls? Are you sure it's THEM with the problem?

No, disrespect. Just a thought.

 

[Pachong]

I feel your pain. I've been in that same boat. Bunch of 19 year old 172 captains made me almost want to quit flying all together. I'm not a fan of ATP based on the instructors that i know that went there. They have all told me they teach you how to pass the test and that's about it. So yeah, it'll get you through quickly but who is going to say that paying money to check boxes faster is what makes a good pilot. Probably beating a dead horse here but, I'm not sure what threads you have and havent read yet. One last thing i can tell you though was for me, just picturing those 19 year old cessna captains in their stupid aviator shirts really motivated me to be a better pilot than them, study longer, harder, keep my eyes on the prize and stuff...maybe just channel some of that abuse you took and put it to work.

 

[ahsmatt7]

The question you need to ask yourself is: Why is everyone rude to me where ever I go and why won't the CFIs return my calls? Are you sure it's THEM with the problem?

No, disrespect. Just a thought.

I feel like this is a canned response to a situation like the OPs and kind of out in left field. When the amount of money involved is as high as flying usually entails, every flight school or CFI needs to put up with students unless the student is making derogatory remarks or causing serious issues that affect the safety and business of the flight school.

Last time I checked, the student is paying the CFI and the CFI usually depends on that money for his/her livelihood...(in most cases, not all) The flight school is also getting the student's hard earned money ( Quite a lot of it too!) which most likely is greatly needed by the flight school to stay in business. Since in both these cases the student is raising the CFI's paycheck and keeping the flight school in business....(indirectly in most cases) both parties furnishing the services to the student need to realize what they are getting and deal with the student no matter how little of a people person the student may be.


I don't mean to be rude to anyone but too many people are getting this attitude like they don't have to treat customers with respect when in fact said customer is making it possible for the business to pay their bills.

 

[amjon]

I highly doubt you would have a better experience at a big school. They tend to care even less about the students that the smaller schools. One school in particular gives students a schedule and charges them (full price/ full flight/ instructor) if they cancel for just about any reason (including medical). They tell you where you have to be and when. If you don't like it, they take money out of your account anyway. The instructors at larger schools are no better (and probably worse) than those at the smaller schools. I've been told at a certain large school that ground was included in the price and the instructor told the student they needed to study on their own as they wouldn't be doing any ground. I wouldn't exactly call that a caring instructor.

 

[Pachong]

I've been told at a certain large school that ground was included in the price and the instructor told the student they needed to study on their own as they wouldn't be doing any ground. I wouldn't exactly call that a caring instructor.

Dangggg.....what a weiner.