Legal ramifications of majors not hiring "connection" carrier pilots

[Maurus]

Let's think about this for a minute. What would be easier for someone to "act" out an answer. A common straight forward question or one that throws someone off? Read what you wrote again, there's a reason for off the wall questions. Reactions tell alot.

They can act if your entire interview content is already online. Everyone knows the typical TMAAT and "what is your worst..." questions are coming and people already know their answers. As a result it is time to act because you don't want them to sound canned!

I tried to wing them once and fell on my face. Why? Because it is purely a game. The fact that I can't come up with a "worst attribute" or "What do you dislike about X" that I can spin positively on the spot shouldn't be bad mark. They are seriously questions that are designed to get you in trouble.

I'm taking it you are/have been an interviewer. In all sincerity, what are "off the wall" questions, and what is the reason for them? Can you give me an example of an "OTW"? question? And the reaction(s) you are looking for that would be deemed positive or negative? If by "off the wall" you mean random, ad hoc questions, how do you measure answer response? Is it scientific, subjective, just kinda your gut feeling that particular day? I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm truly interested in how this process works... and if, in fact, it is really a process at all. The questions I find most useful (from both sides) are those that elicit real knowledge of stated experience. Instead of "Tell me about your international experience," better might be "When you flew to Peru with a stop in Mexico, what paperwork did you need with you?" Now you have a relevant, open-ended question with a measurable response while still providing an opportunity to get a sense of the candidate's skill as a raconteur.

I find it hard that they are purely scientific. Interviews are essentially a first impression and first impressions are wrong more often than they are right.

Heck, here is a study showing you have a better chance at a positive outcome just based on the time of day. Yes the study is of a parole board but ultimately it is the same thing. Take in a bunch of info on a person in a short period of time and make a judgment call. If you happen to interview just prior to lunch or the end of the day you will be less likely to get the job.

You are also less likely to get a job if the interviewers hired a lot of people prior to your interview.

Sadly the content of the interview means less than HR wants to admit.

 

[derg]

They can act if your entire interview content is already online. Everyone knows the typical TMAAT and "what is your worst..." questions are coming and people already know their answers. As a result it is time to act because you don't want them to sound canned!

I tried to wing them once and fell on my face. Why? Because it is purely a game. The fact that I can't come up with a "worst attribute" or "What do you dislike about X" that I can spin positively on the spot shouldn't be bad mark. They are seriously questions that are designed to get you in trouble.



I find it hard that they are purely scientific. Interviews are essentially a first impression and first impressions are wrong more often than they are right.

Heck, here is a study showing you have a better chance at a positive outcome just based on the time of day. Yes the study is of a parole board but ultimately it is the same thing. Take in a bunch of info on a person in a short period of time and make a judgment call. If you happen to interview just prior to lunch or the end of the day you will be less likely to get the job.

You are also less likely to get a job if the interviewers hired a lot of people prior to your interview.

Sadly the content of the interview means less than HR wants to admit.

Trust me, it's not a game.

Say if I was working a career fair and someone gives me a canned answer that didn't actually address the question that I asked, now I have to either ask for clarity (which will throw the applicant off) or assume the other questions are going to have canned answers so I'm never going to have the opportunity to learn about the applicant.

Canned answers are like showing up to a chili competition with a microwaved bowl of Dennisons.

 

[Maurus]

Trust me, it's not a game.

Say if I was working a career fair and someone gives me a canned answer that didn't actually address the question that I asked, now I have to either ask for clarity (which will throw the applicant off) or assume the other questions are going to have canned answers so I'm never going to have the opportunity to learn about the applicant.

Canned answers are like showing up to a chili competition with a microwaved bowl of Dennisons.

Obviously a canned answer that doesn't actually answer the question wont work.

I can't see a way to answer the off the wall questions without already knowing the answers prior to the interview. Like I said. I fell flat on my face when I tried. I hoped they wouldn't be asking those specific questions but of course they pummeled me with them.

I had a more recent interview where I got the "What do you dislike about your current company?" trap. Luckily I had my answer prepared prior to the interview and made it as neutral as possible. Yes, I got the job.

 

[derg]

Obviously a canned answer that doesn't actually answer the question wont work.

I can't see a way to answer the off the wall questions without already knowing the answers prior to the interview. Like I said. I fell flat on my face when I tried. I hoped they wouldn't be asking those specific questions but of course they pummeled me with them.

I had a more recent interview where I got the "What do you dislike about your current company?" trap. Luckily I had my answer prepared prior to the interview and made it as neutral as possible. Yes, I got the job.

Oh it's easier than you think, just learn to roll with it.

Theoretically, some people I know will start at the bottom of the resume and work their way up. If you're at the table, you already meet the minimums, can fly a jet, whoopty-doo, that's just numbers.

I wouldn't be looking for keywords or the right answer, but really "how" the applicant answers because you're trying to efficiently determine the applicants comportment — is he a BS artist that saw the pay rates on APC and is going to tell you what you think you want to hear so he can get the job, or does he actually want the job. Does the applicant understand that simply showing up to work (or the damned hotel van, but thats another thread) on time and flying a jet is only about 1/3 of the job or is that something that has to be taught.

I'm going to do what I have to do to make you the best damned applicant I've seen all day if you just let me. All of that, of course, if I actually was in a position to be an evaluator.

I don't know, I can go on and on, especially since I've had a cocktail.

 

[Maurus]

Oh it's easier than you think, just learn to roll with it.

My brain seriously doesn't work that way and there are tons of us with the same problem that are perfectly good for the job.

Using items in an interview that are purely subjective doesn't show an accurate picture of an applicant. The items you bring up can be figured out with straight forward questions. There is no need for the completely off the wall stuff.

 

[derg]

My brain seriously doesn't work that way and there are tons of us with the same problem that are perfectly good for the job.

Using items in an interview that are purely subjective doesn't show an accurate picture of an applicant. The items you bring up can be figured out with straight forward questions. There is no need for the completely off the wall stuff.

That's why it's more challenging than asking the applicant a list of questions.

I don't want to show my cards too much but the answers aren't half as important as your comportment and conversational skills. When I helped at the career fair, a lot of applicants were nervous and that's completely understandable. Some would really get nervous when the questions asked weren't specifically what they were coached to ask and then "The Death Spiral" would start with some but most applicants took the opportunity to have a conversation about who they were, which was awesome.

I spent twenty minutes talking to one applicant about sailing because he was nervous. His entire demeanor changed because here was a subject he could freestyle, get the cobwebs out of his head and then we could edge back into talking about his experiences and qualifications.

Here's the challenge. If you see a recruiter at a career fair, 90% of them have no idea what the consulting firms are telling applicants. I do because I know a lot of those guys (Yes @Aero Crew Solutions, we still need to sit down for that beer) but the recruiters are largely serving as a 'gatekeeper' to moving forward in the process for some applicants. So the "this is what I was told, this is what you're going to get" applicant perspective is going to create a Hindenburg-like experience for you.

Practice with a friend. Focus on being relaxed, listening to the question and answering the question. Then you can get a good score and move forward in the process. Later in the process, those canned answers may be helpful, but man, it's off-putting having a person walk up, plop his resume down and literally read it for me from top to bottom in a monotone, non-stop sentence because I don't have an opportunity to ask followup questions for clarity or even that moment of "Interesting! Is John Smith still working there? I went to college with him".

Hell, worse comes to worse, I'll give you my digits and you can practice with me if you're coming up on a career fair or interview.

Largely, it's a component of assessing someones customer service skills. Everyone, at this point, can fly an airplane, but do you have the poise the airline is looking for. You have a broken jet at an outstation, concerned/irate passengers and the captain is diddling with his smartphone in the right seat. Are you just going to sit there, actionless, because "The door is open and the beacon is off so I'm not getting paid AND I'm not the captain" or are you going to take the initiative, in an unknown situation, and make magic happen? Can you improvise? Are you going to rise to the occasion?

 

[jwp_145]

Let's say you have Delta, who contracts out their feed to SkyWest or ASA. SkyWest or ASA flies, all or in part, Delta passengers.

A pilot for SkyWest/ASA/etc interviews at Delta, and is turned down.

I'm wondering if a legal case can be made that Delta would be negligent in event of an accident with their passengers with that pilot. In the past, if I'm not mistaken, one "pro" for all this subcontracting is limited liability on the major partner (ie Continental in Colgan crash, Delta in Comair crash, etc.).

No real point to this, just some rambling. It's interesting to me that pilots can be deemed worthy to operate for a connection carrier carrying their mainline passengers but receive no interview or job offer when they apply to "mainline". If carriers were explicitly responsible and co-negligent for the actions of their subcontractors, the commuters would start to disappear.

I've been saying this for a while now about Endeavor and the SSP program.
We have some guys who Delta has told "Never come back".
WHat will happen if, worst case Ontario, that person seriously bends some metal and it kills a passenger?
The attorneys will have a field day. "You mean you, Delta, told him that he wasn't good enough to work at DAL, yet he was still good (cheap) enough to fly an ac owned by you, painted in your colors, at your wholly owned subsidiary, flying passengers that bought a ticket on Delta... etc etc" you see where I'm going with this.

Personally I thnk that it is guaranteed that future litigation from a deceased pax family will definitely happen.

 

[derg]

Delta bought Endeavor? Man, my brain isn't current at all!

 

[Cptnchia]

I've been saying this for a while now about Endeavor and the SSP program.
We have some guys who Delta has told "Never come back".
WHat will happen if, worst case Ontario, that person seriously bends some metal and it kills a passenger?
The attorneys will have a field day. "You mean you, Delta, told him that he wasn't good enough to work at DAL, yet he was still good (cheap) enough to fly an ac owned by you, painted in your colors, at your wholly owned subsidiary, flying passengers that bought a ticket on Delta... etc etc" you see where I'm going with this.

Personally I thnk that it is guaranteed that future litigation from a deceased pax family will definitely happen.

It's not about wether or not the person is good enough to fly a Delta passenger for mainline. If they're at DCI, they already are good enough. It's about if Delta wants them on the island. Do they fit the profile that Delta wants to deal with directly, or let the regional management deal with them. No one gets turned down at Delta for an inability to fly. If you can't fly, you wouldn't have got the interview.

Put another way, they weren't told 'Hell noz," because of flying ability, but because it was determined they weren't "cool" enough to join the club.

 

[SKYROCK]

Put another way, they weren't told 'Hell noz," because of flying ability, but because it was determined they weren't "cool" enough to join the club.

Cool enough to join the club leveraging their futures for negotiating capital? I see, they should be happy, content, and grateful for the view of the island they have from the sand bar. I think I understand now. Ever wandered if National's policy may actually play a part in creating this 'PITA' species used to delegitimize the rest of ALPA's indentured servants at the regionals? Maybe the ones who spoke out were the intelligent ones, able to discern just who presided over their collective reaping.

 

[derg]

Huh?

 

[SKYROCK]

Huh?

What I mean to posit is that, FFD schemes are leveraged as negotiating capital in mainline collective bargaining strategies. Consign X number of regional applicants to the growing fleet of 90 seat, C scale lift, because the market demands this and our survival depends on it (factually inaccurate incendiary propaganda). This effectively delegitimizes an enormous number of pilots, who did not have a name, who would have benefitted from your experience, and places them in a Hunger Games type scenario where, not the best shot, but the cheapest mug wins. This is replete with the chosen gurus lobbing potshots from the sidelines.

Its just a really crappy way to treat your colleagues that invariably leads to a great deal of resentment among them. In a nutshell, its hurtful.

 

[derg]

Which if anyone spent 30 seconds of research on the career, it wouldn't be "Hunger Games".

Do you know how many people who drop out of college to fly jets and then email me about the evil hiring practices of airlines which require degrees? Looooooooads.

One can bitch about being "stuck" or use that same energy to "unstick" themselves. Everyone is hiring.

 

[SKYROCK]

I've never sent you an email about evil hiring practices but I do have a degree that is utterly worthless.

Maybe the energy these people use to unstick themselves is vociferated in disenfranchisement with their union and a call for change. Some pilots at the regionals idolized you guys and the onus was on you to teach them instead of commoditizing and harvesting their worth in FFD schemes. Of course this ship has sailed but its a nasty way to run a business and an even nastier way to run a union. JMHO

 

[derg]

I've never sent you an email about evil hiring practices but I do have a degree that is utterly worthless.

Maybe the energy these people use to unstick themselves is vociferated in disenfranchisement with their union and a call for change. Some guys at the regionals idolized you guys and the onus was on you to teach them instead of commoditizing and harvesting their worth in FFD schemes. Its a nasty way to run a business and an even nastier way to run a union. JMHO

Ehh, the way the majors handle their business seems to be a conference call that I always miss for some reason.

Or maybe it never came.

Here was my goal back in 1996 - create a community where people can get information about careers in aviation and how to best succeed. The people that took the advice and the collective lessons of the community, I mean like actually listened and put their money where their mouth (career goals) were, are succeeding.

I'm doing my part, now you've got to do yours.

 

[SKYROCK]

Agreed. You have done your part and you should be commended for starting such a site. I thoroughly enjoy it.

I don't have money but I did borrow a lot to see my goals to fruition. If success is measured by the frame of reference in the industry (a mainline job), and a system exists where one must spend lots of money and deny their worth to reach this success, I submit the measure is a mandate and a system of fiscal control.

A union, worth its salt, should not tolerate this, after all, its the same job. Many regional pilots want to change the industry paradigm, reframe, and prevent a C scale from ever rearing its ugly head again. Solidarity is necessary to accomplish this, not self righteous indignation and leveraging a caste system for the benefit of few. In a legalistic sense, this is softcore fraud and racketeering, using the perception of a legitimate authority front to embezzle money with devastating consequences for some.

 

[SKYROCK]

Ehh, the way the majors handle their business seems to be a conference call that I always miss for some reason.

Or maybe it never came.
.

This is precisely how the Association runs its business. There needs to be transparency, at the airline, the FAA, and at the association. Decisions affecting the lives of the illegitimate and unnamed, should not be held in the hands of only a few, acting on behalf of their own self interest. That's all I am trying to say here.

 

[Cptnchia]

Word bullets everywhere!!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I've never sent you an email about evil hiring practices but I do have a degree that is utterly worthless.

An aviation degree?

 

[SKYROCK]

An aviation degree?

A psychic? Yes.