pete2800
'Member?
Except the trip/duty rigs, 401(k) matching, premium pay opportunities, vacation slide, pilot-built schedules, schedule adjustment system, and other industry-leading contract features...
Legal ramifications of majors not hiring "connection" carrier pilots
- Thread starter wheelsup
- Start date
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Ahhh, the other airlines mentioned have that as well.
Don't you guys have 13 bid periods?
pete2800
'Member?
10.4, with an 86.3 min guarantee. Same as 75/month. My first year at a Teamster represented regional, I made 37k. While still pathetic, I really doubt that people at ALPA represented regionals making 22/hour were making more...
Anyway, my point is that when you take into consideration the infinitely greater resources ALPA has, they're severely under-performed when it comes to regional contracts, up until the last year or less. They should be blowing Teamsters out of the water.
Anyway, my point is that when you take into consideration the infinitely greater resources ALPA has, they're severely under-performed when it comes to regional contracts, up until the last year or less. They should be blowing Teamsters out of the water.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
So it's my imagination? So answer the rest, why doesn't ALPA work to make sure every represented carrier is a career destination? What your saying is, if a regional is ALPA represented they can make a poop sandwich taste a little less like a poop sandwich by the way of work rules. If you really want to stop eating a poop sandwich, you should go to work for one of the big three ALPA carriers. If you don't get blessed to work at one of the big three, ALPA will continue to provide salt for that poop sandwich out of the coffers of ALPA national because we "feel for you".? Where do I sign up?
SKYROCK
F RAN CO FILE B RAN IFF HI RAM AB IFF
Yes, in my opinion, the gigantic 'C' scale, is a very valuable negotiating tool and leverage for the great white fathers with fat wallets. The organization has a stellar history of taking from those with the 'least' and giving to those with more, including but not limited to, training. What is most galling, is the trumpeting of the group think, and de legitimization of regional pilots, by putting forth the false dichotomy and thought stopping construct that regional pilots are a financial burden to ALPA and to be thankful that we have any representation at all. Fervent proclamations to 'sign here' or suffer the consequences...a la...the whipsaw, brought to you by the great white fathers at ALPA. The company grabbed their pension anyway, with the 'double tap' bankruptcy.
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B767
Well-Known Member
I wish they would make regionals a career destination. Less competition for moving on. Enter...me.
It is funny listening to the lifers here though. They know they're lifers and really have no desire to move on (make good money and amazing QOL). You can still see the little glimmer in their eye though when they say, "I'm buddies with the SLC CP who is buddies with the Delta SLC CP, and he said that in, like, 2 years Delta will be calling us to see if we want to interview without even applying."
Riiiiiiiight
It is funny listening to the lifers here though. They know they're lifers and really have no desire to move on (make good money and amazing QOL). You can still see the little glimmer in their eye though when they say, "I'm buddies with the SLC CP who is buddies with the Delta SLC CP, and he said that in, like, 2 years Delta will be calling us to see if we want to interview without even applying."
Riiiiiiiight
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
Low pay at the regionals isn't ALPA or the Teamsters fault, when a company is only given X number of dollars to run their business how does everyone expect them to pay pilots what they are worth and make it a career destination? Get volunteer/ intern flight attendants, dispatchers, etc? ( BTW some people are happy making $80k a year). ALPA national distributes funds to the regionals to assist each airline because each regional cannot afford to do much on their own dues money, plain and simple. There's no conlict of interest, each airline has their own interests and they can try and accomplish whatever they see fit for their pilot group. This is the contract business, your costs have to be below what is being paid for the services provided. It's not ALPA's fault. I think it's funny how people forget what things ALPA has accomplished, KCM, ASAP to name a few, those are worth dues money alone. I also don't understand how people can say that ALPA doesn't care about the regional pilots career progression, what about the FFD job fairs? Who do you think was heavily involved in that event BTW? Additionally as far as career progression well, supply and demand, unfortuantely there is more supply at the moment. That's not ALPA's fault, and don't bring up scope, that's each individual airlines deal voted by their own pilots.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
While it's a great thought, it's got no legs for a number of reasons.
If it ever gets that bad, it's not going to be an airline you want to work for, trust me.
Ab initio, absolutely, but the world of "a great airline is going to offer my fat ass a seat because I'm awesome" is heavily, heavily unlikely.
But it keeps Uncle Rico throwin' balls down by the river, waiting for coach to put him in!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Hey @Hacker15e, this is the thread you were looking for.
etflies
Keeping calm, Chiving on.
If it ever gets that bad, it's not going to be an airline you want to work for, trust me.
Ab initio, absolutely, but the world of "a great airline is going to offer my fat ass a seat because I'm awesome" is heavily, heavily unlikely.
But it keeps Uncle Rico throwin' balls down by the river, waiting for coach to put him in!
But, but he can throw a ball over them mountains! How could he possible not be put in the game
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Once again, you are making my point.
Why does QX have everything as fantastic while at RAH everything sucks. It just points to the fact that ALPA or the Teamsters do NOT control the business models of the carriers they represent. ALPA has made mistakes, no doubt, but overall they have done a great job representing smaller regional carriers. I had no problem getting what I needed at Colgan and we lost money for ALPA with everything that went on.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Yes.
ALPA doesn't control the business model at regionals.
There are plenty that are lifers at ARW, XJT, Envoy, ASA, even TSA. As stated, making $75,000 - $80,000 is ok for a lot of folks. However, these lifers can only blame themselves if/when the business model of their carrier catches up to them.
I am not saying this at all. Once again your imagination is getting the best of you or you are trolling.
SKYROCK
F RAN CO FILE B RAN IFF HI RAM AB IFF
ALPA was complicit in its design. National members, particularly wide body captains, enjoy the benefits of this. Regional FFD schemes are simply the 'Reaping' of ALPA collusion with management.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I think that's a huge cop out.
- For one, it's obvious that not everyone can get a job at a major. There just aren't enough seats.
- For two, it's completely missing the point. If a guy can fly a Delta/United/American passenger from Podunk-ville to XYZ Hub, and from XYZ Hub to Podunk-ville, but isn't "qualified" to fly him from XYZ Hub to "slightly less Po-dunk"-ville, that is a serious problem with the how airlines are legally on the hook for overseeing their subcontractors.
- For Three, making the major carriers legally responsible for the actions of their subcontractors especially in regards to who is actually operating the equipment, might mean the gutting of the regional ranks altogether and placing the vast majority of those RJs on property at said property. It also might possibly further increase the pilot supply problem at that level, making returning flying to the major level even more obtainable. This is a huge win for guys already on property at that major. There would be no need to waste any sort of bargaining power on that part of the scope clause, and instead a broadsided volley could be delivered to where it is needed most - with the new joint ventures being established.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
You're crediting the lack of applicants driving increased competition for pilots to ALPA being able to bargain better contracts because they are "just good at it"?!?
Did you actually say that with a straight face? Wow!
ALPA has done practically everything in its power to ensure the continued supply pilots to the cheap labor subcontractors (with programs such as Cleared to Dream) vs. cutting off supply to increase wages, which is what unions are actually supposed to do. The Colgan accident and reaction wasn't even an agenda ALPA began, it came from the relatives of the crash victims.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Talk to the Compass folks (@jtrain609 and @amorris311 ) about the resources they got from ALPA National recently. Do you think Compass/TSA Holding just GAVE them what they wanted? Or was there more going on there. The more going on facilitated by ALPA.
Yes.
Look at Air Wisconsin, XJT, Envoy, ASA, PDT, PSA in the mid 2000s with plenty of pilots out there. You had FOs making OK wages by their second year. This was at the height of many pilots out there looking for jobs.
No, it came from ALPA. They were on the ARC that worked on the 1500 hour rule.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I worked at AWAC in that time frame. I made around $35k IIRC second year. I'm sorry, that is not "OK" wages. That is piss poor wages. By comparison to my CFI days, I was better, and the job was better, but by no means was it an "OK" wage.
The entire regional industry is underpaid, by a significant margin. If ALPA really gave a shat, they would put all resources available to stop the continued outsourcing of scope, which is what drove that segment. Yes it's happening now, sort of, but only because of fuel prices and economies of scale making the 50 seaters not really needed by management. Management is voluntarily cutting 50 seat aircraft now that carriers have combined.
When United pilots got their ridiculous raises in 2000, they gave away an unlimited number of RJs in exchange. That is a failure from the ALPA leadership for allowing that to happen. ALPA could give two shats about the commuters.
ALPA is needed by the commuter guys because they can't fund their own stuff but it's the best of the worst options, kinda like your executioner asking if you want your head to be cut off or suffocated.
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
ALPA has no control over the "supply" it's up to each individual person to decide if they want to be a pilot and apply to the airlines, which starting out is the regionals. Once again when costs are fixed like they are at the regionals (contractors) there's not a whole lot a union can do to increase wages when the money isn't there. Just look at Republic, they are saying they already can't afford their new contract and expect Delta, AA and United to pay them more. I suspect you're gonna see some contracts get canceled.
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Seggy
Well-Known Member
Most of the folks at XJT I knew were making $40,000 there second year. Same was true for ASA. Should it be more? Yes. But it isn't poverty wages.
I can't speak for 'Merican but United and Delta's Scope Choke is working. Fuel prices have little to do with it as fuel closed below $40.00 a barrel yesterday. You are reaching for facts that aren't there.
Agreed.
That is characteristically false. I got all the resources I needed as Colgan MEC Chair.
