Regional airlines cut costs at price of safety

[Tommay85]

Do you know anyone at Compass? I've heard from 2 friends that work there that a good internal rec or two will get you in.

 

[Tommay85]

I'm not entirely sure it is. My point is that the pay sucks from the start. Sure, a doctor can move from A to B without huge losses, but a pilot can do the same. You're saying that a pilot can't move AT ALL, but what you really mean is in the seniority based 121 system. A 10,000 hour pilot can use his skills for any number of jobs outside the part 121 field, where he will be compensated better from the start. There's nothing stopping a part 121 pilot from moving over into a corporate position except their attitude and drive to make the switch.

(And now mikecweb is going to come in here and tell me I'm an idiot, and don't know what I'm talking about, and how that'll never happen because you can't wash the stink off a part 121 pilot).

That and their is a market for training people CRM concepts in other sectors. How big that market can/will get is up in the air though. Isn't there someone on here that got out of aviation to do that very thing?

 

[FloridaLarry]

Do you know of any aircraft that say "McDonald Douglas" on them?

Maybe you get fries with that?

 

[Eagle421flyer]

I "Boeing" or "McDonald Douglas."

Yes, yes I know it's wrong, my wife however who was typing because I was driving didn't know it was wrong....glad you got the moral of the story.........

 

[mikecweb]

Yes, yes I know it's wrong, my wife however who was typing because I was driving didn't know it was wrong....glad you got the moral of the story.........

Wait you get your wife to post for you?????

Teach me!

 

[jrh]

Do you work for one of the extremely biased news agencies such as MSNBC or FOX NEWS?

That quote was edited very much to make it appear I was strongly considering GoJet. The quote finished... "but it's GoJet". I know you intend no harm just pointing out the irony so no worries man.

My bad. I honestly wasn't intending to change the meaning of your quote. I read your quote to basically be saying, "GoJet is starting to have a lot of movement, so I'm considering them, and of course they kinda suck, but I'm still considering them..."

I was only intending to edit for brevity, not to change the meaning as I apparently did.

I'm just not quite sure where to go when nobody decent will take me. Great Mistakes, Silver, GoJet, Republic.... these are the 121 places I would be employable at with my current hours. I think 135 sounds kinda nice and doable with decent pay and QOL but I don't even have 135 mins and I can't name a single place where it would be worth being an FO for 135. A friend even works flying FO on 727s and has said in the past that I could possibly work there and he makes decent money but lives on a 20 min call out 24 hours/day except for the 7th day. No thanks.... at least at the airline I get 1:45. For now I ride the Titantic and hopefully reach 1,500TT and a life raft before its too late.

Aerial survey? Flight instruct? Fly jumpers? Do VFR flying in Alaska? It's a big world out there. You can make just as much money and have a heck of a lot more fun at jobs outside the airlines, compared to your first year at a regional.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[bronco21016]

Do you know anyone at Compass? I've heard from 2 friends that work there that a good internal rec or two will get you in.

I do but unfortunately they can't budge on the 1,500TT because they PIC type everyone.

I realize there is a lot of flying out there that falls under part 91 such as all the things you mentioned. Until the furlough notice comes though it's best for me to stick out the regional. Pay is ok at second year and the flying is steady so I'm still inching closer to that 1,500 TT. Once I get that though I'll be searching for the first way out.

 

[Tommay85]

I do but unfortunately they can't budge on the 1,500TT because they PIC type everyone.

I realize there is a lot of flying out there that falls under part 91 such as all the things you mentioned. Until the furlough notice comes though it's best for me to stick out the regional. Pay is ok at second year and the flying is steady so I'm still inching closer to that 1,500 TT. Once I get that though I'll be searching for the first way out.

Indeed. I feel the same about freight guys who jump ship before getting 1000 TPIC. Yes, you'll probably need WAY more than that to get on at a major, but HAVING that at least gives you the opportunity to move from regional FO->major FO. You're making a good call IMO.

I have a buddy at pinnacolaba who's looking to jump ship before he gets his furlough notice. As it stands now, that day probably won't come, but he still doesn't like the idea of being an FO indefinitely as it stands currently with the company. Things change though is what I keep telling him. My old MEI instructor is a 6 year FO there also looking to leave. Understandable thinking in the short term, but long term, probably a mistake. Blind faith is hard too though.

We have an older guy at Flight Express who did a lot of jumping around in the 121 world trying to find short cuts. 9/11 happened and he didn't fly for awhile. I had a 50 year old guy in my class who's career bad luck is almost unbelievable. Flying is all about musical chairs. Make sure you're always somewhere that makes you happy when the music stops and don't get caught without a seat. It can completely trash your career progression.

 

[bronco21016]

Problem is as I stated earlier though. We're too reliant on -200 flying so as soon as Delta takes those from us it's gonna be hard for anyone on the bottom half of the list to have any kind of career movement at Pinnacle. Upgrades will not exist for a decade I'd imagine if we don't replace the -200s.

 

[Tommay85]

I see I see. The scary thing is that if you stay, you might be looking at the prospect of being an FO for a long time, only have the company go belly up. Tough to say what's best. Like I said, things change drastically these days.

 

[O&M]

At the end of the day when all the customers have been shuttled across the country, the bills paid, and its time to divide the scraps of whats left (profits) between management, labor, and shareholders and see whos team you're on.

Id rather have an agreement (union contract) on how much im compensated for exactly what i have to do, spelled out in writing, enforced by a court before I waste my life away making money for someone else. Just saying.

If you don't want to make money for someone else, then start your own business. In the meantime, remember that your salary is one of the bills being paid. And that bill is paid regardless of whether there are profits or not, and you get paid before management and shareholders do.

 

[Cruise]

If you don't want to make money for someone else, then start your own business. In the meantime, remember that your salary is one of the bills being paid. And that bill is paid regardless of whether there are profits or not, and you get paid before management and shareholders do.

Ask the people at Pinnacle who gets paid first......it's not the pilots, that's for damn sure. So take your little management perspective and shove it.

 

[killbilly]

Ask the people at Pinnacle who gets paid first......it's not the pilots, that's for damn sure. So take your little management perspective and shove it.

Easy there, Cruise.

I suspect that O&M was referring to the general practices of business owners - and whether or not you might his statement distasteful - it is generally true. Our own WacoFan has frequently referred to employees as motor oil in the sense that they are required to achieve certain milestones, but if they could be replaced/removed, they would be.

Pinnacle's management may get some lofty bonuses, and pilot pay scales may be dreadfully low - but the statement holds water. It's not an altruistic one either - Pinnacle NEEDS those employees. And the second that paycheck doesn't come in is the second the planes stop flying.

That's the disgusting reality - not the management perspective elucidated above, but this: they've figured out what the minimum requirement is to get the staff to show up every day.

 

[dasleben]

Ask the people at Pinnacle who gets paid first......it's not the pilots, that's for damn sure. So take your little management perspective and shove it.

It's not a charity.

Some of you guys get bent out of shape about employers paying pilots poor wages, but what motivation does the company have to increase wages when everyone shows up to work either way? It's just business.

 

[WacoFan]

Easy there, Cruise.

I suspect that O&M was referring to the general practices of business owners - and whether or not you might his statement distasteful - it is generally true. Our own WacoFan has frequently referred to employees as motor oil in the sense that they are required to achieve certain milestones, but if they could be replaced/removed, they would be.

Pinnacle's management may get some lofty bonuses, and pilot pay scales may be dreadfully low - but the statement holds water. It's not an altruistic one either - Pinnacle NEEDS those employees. And the second that paycheck doesn't come in is the second the planes stop flying.

That's the disgusting reality - not the management perspective elucidated above, but this: they've figured out what the minimum requirement is to get the staff to show up every day.

The motor-oil comment drew me a lot of heat. My defense of the statement drew even more, and I'm afraid my original point in that post was missed by a vast majority who focused on my terminology.

I will say that the role of "job creator" is widely misunderstood. Doug often makes cracks about "job creatorzzzz" and such. The idea that a person goes into business simply to have employees is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life. The idea that people should hire, just because there may be tax breaks, is similarly ludicrous and shows the disconnect between Congress and the Administration, the "people" who are not business owners, and actual business owners - who ultimately ARE the job creators. This widespread misunderstanding then applies itself to the concept of outsourcing, or replacing people with technology. I will say - if your job is outsourced, or is going to be outsourced - it isn't a very stable job and will probably come to an end in the near future anyway, whether your employer outsources or not. Obsolete business models don't last and they will either adapt or be consumed by the competition.

 

[killbilly]

The motor-oil comment drew me a lot of heat. My defense of the statement drew even more, and I'm afraid my original point in that post was missed by a vast majority who focused on my terminology.

I remember this. I also remember supporting the idea/concept. I found it to be a fairly accurate descriptor.

If you feel I've mischaracterized your remarks, I'll edit accordingly.

I will say that the role of "job creator" is widely misunderstood. Doug often makes cracks about "job creatorzzzz" and such. The idea that a person goes into business simply to have employees is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life. The idea that people should hire, just because there may be tax breaks, is similarly ludicrous and shows the disconnect between Congress and the Administration, the "people" who are not business owners, and actual business owners - who ultimately ARE the job creators.

I do have quite a few hippie-left-leaning tendencies, but I tend to concur with this as well.

 

[Cruise]

Easy there, Cruise.

I suspect that O&M was referring to the general practices of business owners - and whether or not you might his statement,distasteful - it is generally true. Our own WacoFan has frequently referred to employees as motor oil in the sense that they are required to achieve certain milestones, but if they could be replaced/removed, they would be.

Pinnacle's management may get some lofty bonuses, and pilot pay scales may be dreadfully low - but the statement holds water. It's not an altruistic one either - Pinnacle NEEDS those employees. And the second that paycheck doesn't come in is the second the planes stop flying.

That's the disgusting reality - not the management perspective elucidated above, but this: they've figured out what the minimum requirement is to get the staff to show up every day.

Yeah, that might be a touchy subject for me.....I agree, on the whole. However, the problem is Pinnacle HASN'T been paying it's pilots properly.....for a long time. No, I'm not talking about pay rates....I'm talking about a paycheck being paid correctly and on time. Neither of which happen on a regular basis.
So I understand the premise of what's being said, it just gets old listening to some management-type espousing about how hard they have it and the little guy needs to understand. I call BS....the little guys have been getting pushed around far too long. Sorry, I am unsympathetic to the woes of management types.

 

[killbilly]

Yeah, that might be a touchy subject for me.....I agree, on the whole. However, the problem is Pinnacle HASN'T been paying it's pilots properly.....for a long time. No, I'm not talking about pay rates....I'm talking about a paycheck being paid correctly and on time. Neither of which happen on a regular basis.
So I understand the premise of what's being said, it just gets old listening to some management-type espousing about how hard they have it and the little guy needs to understand. I call BS....the little guys have been getting pushed around far too long. Sorry, I am unsympathetic to the woes of management types.

I get it, man. I'm not real sympathetic to them, either, considering the way they've run the business. My point is that the "little guys" are still applying for the jobs. And flying the planes.

Line's gotta be drawn somewhere. I've frequently said that water finds it's own level. Maybe we're there, though I suspect not. At some point, the Little Guys will say enough is enough and stop taking the jobs. Only then will things change.

 

[Tommay85]

I get it, man. I'm not real sympathetic to them, either, considering the way they've run the business. My point is that the "little guys" are still applying for the jobs. And flying the planes.

Line's gotta be drawn somewhere. I've frequently said that water finds it's own level. Maybe we're there, though I suspect not. At some point, the Little Guys will say enough is enough and stop taking the jobs. Only then will things change.

This. As I stated before, you can vote with your job application. You'll NEVER get a enough short sighted 20 year olds to do this though.

I don't mean any offense necessarily, but these complaints(particularly about pay) have never been a secret or new. Financially prepare, THEN go to the regionals if you so choose.

The payroll errors with Pinnacle are inexcusable however.

 

[WacoFan]

I remember this. I also remember supporting the idea/concept. I found it to be a fairly accurate descriptor.

If you feel I've mischaracterized your remarks, I'll edit accordingly.



I do have quite a few hippie-left-leaning tendencies, but I tend to concur with this as well.

You didn't mischaracterize at all - you brought up a good point.