Regional airlines cut costs at price of safety

[ComplexHiAv8r]

At some point, we'll all need to start paying to use the restroom!

I remember having to pay a dime for use of the factories at some airports years ago. Buddy can you spare a dime? I don't want to have to climb under the door.....again.

 

[Roger Roger]

Of course they cut costs at the price of safety. Everyone does to some extent, or airlines would be infinitely safe but have no passengers who could afford to fly. The reality is that until and unless somebody crashes a bunch of airplanes the 121 world is so safe that the possibility of crashing doesn't even come onto someone's radar when they book a ticket.

 

[bronco21016]

Back to how the thread has gone to ticket prices as it always does. Ticket prices and the travelling public's constant desire for cheap tickets, combined with every airline trying to capture the biggest piece of the pie they can get, are the reason regional airlines (outsourcing) exists. Ticket prices are not the cause of our being stuck at regional jobs that we view as crappy (@jtrain609 for some reason thinks... 'oh it ain't so bad'... I kid, I kid... it's not great but after 1st year its not the end of the world like many of us make it sound.)

I don't know the full history of how regionals started but once management finally started realizing that if they eroded scope they could save money, a competitive advantage, the downward spiral began. The system of the regionals providing so much domestic lift allows the legacies the opportunity to have several large companies that they continue to whipsaw against each other constantly resetting the longevity and pay rates of the pilot group. All you have to do is look at the Pinnacle bankruptcy and the relationship with Delta. Delta is going to play us against the lower costs of GoJet and Compass and if we don't play ball they'll simply destroy us, eliminating most of the longevity and pay gains the pilot group has made. Many will simply drop out of the biz but most will simply reset their pay at another regional if the majors don't begin to hire in large numbers soon. Many will end up at GoJet or Compass where they will be paid what are actually similar rates to Pinnacle but because the company has less longevity it is overall cheaper and the pilots will make far less over their lifetimes. Eventually Compass and GoJet will become Pinnacle or Comair and regional airline XYZ will come in to reset the scale again and everyone will chase the upgrade.

If we do play ball then we simply keep our jobs and shift the pressure to the GoJet and Compass pilots or at least divert the pressure off of us for awhile. Either way we race to the bottom, the question is only how fast will we race to the bottom?

All of this is influenced by the majors trying to drive costs down as much as possible both for profit and to get prices $1 cheaper than everyone else in order to steal more of the market.

Who is to blame?

It's really a combination of factors including ticket prices and the market, but pilots seem to be the biggest enemy of our own well being in this cycle. As someone previously stated we stick to the seniority system that is clearly broken because it allows the legacies to make this system work where whole lists are eliminated and then recreated at a new company. We stick to the absurd pay scales that suggest longevity means you should make 150% of what the bottom guys make, if not more. (I'm guessing if you looked at pay disparity in a regional seniority list it would be even more than that. I would imagine the most senior at my company make about 3-4x what I make as a 2nd year FO which is amplified by the fact I'm reserve and they get a sweet schedule if they so choose.) Finally, we sell out those at the bottom for a few $ more per hour.

What are the solutions I see? First, one list. I cannot expand on how I think it would be done but it needs to become a very serious conversation with this ridiculous whipsawing and resetting of our careers. Why do you think so many people ride the ship like Comair or now Pinnacle? It's hard to go start over all the way at the bottom of a new airline... especially when the only choice is a new regional. Second, except for first year, the pay scales should be tightened up. A company should not have to be destroyed because their pilot group has commited too much time to their company. If longevity on pay scales was tightened up GoJet wouldn't have the competitive advantage allowing Delta to destory a Pinnacle. Companies would need to gain the advantage by running a company that is actually efficient. Third. STOP GIVING UP SCOPE!!! The only way to end the regional model that hurts us so badly as a group is to stop voting in contracts that allow any type of additional flying at regionals. All of the flying needs to be taken back to mainline. Hopefully when mass retirements start the new, younger, majorities at legacies are not so short sighted to forget their struggles working at a regional. I like to think that if I ever make it to a legacy I will vote no on every single TA that proposes anything less than regaining scope. Someone make me re-read this in 15-20 years.

We cannot fix all of the problems plaguing our industry but if we would stop making it so easy for legacy management to keep beating us down we would all have much more stable and prosperous careers in my opinion.

 

[jtrain609]

Back to how the thread has gone to ticket prices as it always does. Ticket prices and the travelling public's constant desire for cheap tickets, combined with every airline trying to capture the biggest piece of the pie they can get, are the reason regional airlines (outsourcing) exists. Ticket prices are not the cause of our being stuck at regional jobs that we view as crappy (@jtrain609 for some reason thinks... 'oh it ain't so bad'... I kid, I kid... it's not great but after 1st year its not the end of the world like many of us make it sound.)

It's bad when you're at the bottom of a list and you're about to become furlough fodder. Oh and that's after spending a year on reserve. I've played that game, and there's no doubt, there's not much worse in this industry.

You got a new job lined up yet?

 

[bronco21016]

Not yet. Honestly haven't really looked that hard yet because I'm not sure where I wanna go. GoJet is starting to look like they're probably gonna have a lot of movement but it's GoJet and Compass... well I don't have the hours for Compass.

 

[jrh]

Who is to blame?

It's really a combination of factors including ticket prices and the market, but pilots seem to be the biggest enemy of our own well being in this cycle.

...haven't really looked that hard yet because I'm not sure where I wanna go. GoJet is starting to look like they're probably gonna have a lot of movement....

I really hope this doesn't come across as kicking a guy when he's down, because it's not what I'm intending at all...but do you see the irony of what you just wrote?

After writing a very well thought out post, which was dead on in many regards, particularly of how pilots are continually played against each other, you essentially say, "Mehh, I'll just keep on playing."

The downward spiral continues.

And it won't stop until pilots, as a whole, stop showing up for work at crappy places with crappy pay. We can talk about one list, pattern bargaining, and whatever else until we're blue in the face, but that's all for years, possibly decades down the road. I say, show me the money right now. Right now. No? Ok, I won't work there then.

 

[jtrain609]

I really hope this doesn't come across as kicking a guy when he's down, because it's not what I'm intending at all...but do you see the irony of what you just wrote?

After writing a very well thought out post, which was dead on in many regards, particularly of how pilots are continually played against each other, you essentially say, "Mehh, I'll just keep on playing."

The downward spiral continues.

And it won't stop until pilots, as a whole, stop showing up for work at crappy places with crappy pay. We can talk about one list, pattern bargaining, and whatever else until we're blue in the face, but that's all for years, possibly decades down the road. I say, show me the money right now. Right now. No? Ok, I won't work there then.

Honest question: Do you feel the same way about not going to medical school because you get paid almost nothing in residency, after you've got the M.D. after your name?

 

[Hacker15e]

The system of the regionals providing so much domestic lift allows the legacies the opportunity to have several large companies that they continue to whipsaw against each other .

The most significant part of the current problem is that it's a completely dependent relationship between the regionals and the majors. The regionals are currently completely reliant on the contracts with the legacy airlines. It hasn't always been like that, and the current state of things means that the legacy airlines who are issuing the contracts are the single lifeline regionals have. If they can't get their contracts, the regionals are effectively dead in the water. ExpressJet's foray into "branded" flying proved that under current business models and the current economy, the regionals just can't make it on their own two legs.

The worst part is that it isn't even really a symbiotic relationship -- if the regionals were to completely die off, the majors would still be able to continue their business, albeit with increases costs. So, for the majors, there's really zero downside to things no matter what happens to the regionals.

If the regionals could somehow get back to a more independent relationship with the majors, there might be a chance to break out of the current cage.

As is, they're trapped.

 

[FloridaLarry]

Hacker 15E analyzed the present situation well.

The majors have a stake in the present situation. The regionals have only thought about making sure they work for several majors to be free from a single thumb (think Pinnacle & Delta). Safety isn't going to change the paradyme - Colgan 3407 merely led to more stringent rules reinforcing the present playbook. Going it alone has been too risky - Independence and ExpressJet (although really deep pockets might make a difference, so they could ride out the tough times at start-up). Buying into a troubled big guy merely insures they they can't kick you out easily - Mesa and American West. Owning a bigger guy hadn't helped - RAH and Frontier. The only secret to running a regional is a young, therefore more under-paid, workforce, so you can under-bid for new contracts.

Passengers really don't care - they want to get from A to B as cheaply as possible.

The bigger the majors get, the more power they have in this unequal equation.

Think forward to what might change it. No one has found the answer, yet.

 

[jrh]

Honest question: Do you feel the same way about not going to medical school because you get paid almost nothing in residency, after you've got the M.D. after your name?

No. That's an apples to oranges comparison.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert on medical professions, but here are two differences that immediately popped into my head: Doctors only go through residency once, versus airline pilots who potentially go to the bottom of a seniority list multiple (unlimited?) times during their career. Doctors, once certified, have excellent job security. It's not often you hear of doctors losing their jobs, or if they do, not being able to find work elsewhere. Pilots, on the other hand, are faced with things like economic downturns, mergers, bankruptcies, losing their medical, etc.

I should also clarify, I don't expect pilots to get paid $100k their first year. That's not what I'm upset about. I understand businesses need to recoup training costs and whatnot. But these poverty level wages at regionals are an insult, and it boggles my mind why pilots are willing to put up with it.

I guess it's the dangling carrot mentality. Everyone thinks that awesome job paying $200k/year at a major is waiting for them 5 or 10 years down the road. For the majority of pilots, it's not.

Maybe I'm way off base with my opinions because I started my career shortly after the chaos of 9/11, followed by a massive recession. Everything I've ever known has been fear and instability, therefore fear and instability is the norm for me. Personally, I think pilots would be way better off if they viewed their career as a series of several 5-10 year jobs, rather than striving for an awesome 35-year career at one carrier. I consider the idea of a lifetime at a single carrier to be a joke....as I pointed out above with mergers and bankruptcies and such, something is going to get shaken up every ten years or so.

If pilots would accept this as the norm, they'd be a lot more likely to demand respectable wages from Day 1, even if that meant the top end is lower. Grab as much as you can from the start, because you don't know how long it's going to last.

 

[SteveC]

...

If pilots would accept this as the norm, they'd be a lot more likely to demand respectable wages from Day 1, even if that meant the top end is lower. Grab as much as you can from the start, because you don't know how long it's going to last.

In real life how would the "demand respectable wages from Day 1" plan work?

 

[jrh]

In real life how would the "demand respectable wages from Day 1" plan work?

I don't know. I'd like to think I'm doing it. But then again, I'm not captain on a jet, making $100k/year, so a lot of people probably won't take me seriously.

I spent six years as an instructor, most of which were at a very good operation from which I was in no rush to leave. Made $30k+/year, home every night, weekends off, great people/atmosphere. I hung out there until I saw what I considered a better opportunity at my current employer.

I came to my current employer because they're known for good pay, QOL, and corporate culture. I'm making about $35k/year + benefits, home every night, only work 4 days/week, weekends off, very stable, all in my first year with the company, and it will only get better as I accrue seniority...all for flying a nine seat piston twin. Is this where I plan to retire? No, probably not, but again, it's a really good place from which I'm in no rush to leave. I feel like I can hang out here indefinitely, until I find something better.

The common thread throughout my career has been that I'm patient. I'm not chasing turbine time, or short upgrade time, or whatever else pilots chase while trying to get to the top. I understand people need to pay their dues, but I'm not willing to be straight up *miserable*, even for a moment, in an effort to get ahead. I'd rather have lower top end pay in exchange for decent pay/QOL from Day 1.

If the majority of pilots approached their careers this way, I have no doubt we'd have significantly better pay/QOL at regionals now.

As I've said before...lots of pilots whine about their job...yet they keep showing up to work! Blows my mind. It's like the old anti-drug ads--Just Say No! Simple as that. Nothing will improve until pilots are willing to walk away from crappy jobs for crappy pay.

 

[Eagle421flyer]

I don't know the full history of how regionals started but once management finally started realizing that if they eroded scope they could save money, a competitive advantage, the downward spiral began.
.

I can't vouch for Delta or American or anyone else but I worked at XJT when it was still a wholly owned by Continental. If I am remembering this wrong please correct me as it's been a long time. Back somewhere in the mid-late 90's when Continental Express was flying only ATR's, Beech 1900's ect...(no jets). Management went to the Mainline CAL guys and asked them if they wanted to fly this new 50 seater jet, how much they would want for it, and questions like that. The CAL guys said no they didn't want to fly them, because the wages were to low and it didn't say "Boeing" or "McDonald Douglas." So then management said is it ok if we give 20 of these planes to Continental Express? At which point the CAL guys said ok. And the rest is history.......

 

[jtrain609]

I guess it's the dangling carrot mentality. Everyone thinks that awesome job paying $200k/year at a major is waiting for them 5 or 10 years down the road. For the majority of pilots, it's not.

See, I'm at this point in my life where I view pilots thinking other careers are the bee's knees as the dangling carrot.

"You should go to law school! You'll make TONS of money!"

A few will. The average salary out of law school is closer to $50,000.

"You should go to medical school! You'll make TONS of money!"

Eh, maybe, as long as you specialize in the right area, and that's AFTER you get through residency and a fellowship.

"You should be programmer! You'll make TONS of money!"

INDIA!

"You should be an engineer! You'll make TONS of money!"

India, again.

"You should get an MBA! You'll make TONS of money!"

I know a manager of a Toys-R-Us with an MBA. Seriously.

The "BIG MONEY AND NEVER WORKING" job simply doesn't exist in this country. It never really has, but the internet has held it out on good information that it always did and if we just did X that it would come back. Lawyers and doctors work 80 hour weeks. Other jobs have been outsourced. And to be honest, the $200,000 job just 5-10 years down the road for most attorney's, and many doctors, is just as mythical.

EDIT: And I've gotta let you know, I can't believe I'm even writing this. Jtrain saying that the regionals aren't the most horrible thing since Boris was born? Not making arguments to run screaming out of this career!? Not trying to find a way to quit this career!?!?!?! (I think I've tried to quit flying at least 6 times so far. It's worse than a smack addiction). The stuff I'm saying, in many ways, doesn't make any sense, or jive with what I've myself advocated over the years.

Maybe I've moved from "The airlines suck!" to "EVERYTHING SUCKS, and this sucks slightly less."

 

[BobDDuck]

And the rest is history.......

That's pretty much how it happened. I think Comair was the first and then ExpressJet and then maybe CHQ or Mesa in the USAir system. And here we are today.

 

[FlyingScot]

I want to see the motto of of one of these regionals.

"We scrimp on safety and pass the savings on to you"

 

[jrh]

The "BIG MONEY AND NEVER WORKING" job simply doesn't exist in this country. It never really has, but the internet has held it out on good information that it always did and if we just did X that it would come back. Lawyers and doctors work 80 hour weeks. Other jobs have been outsourced. And to be honest, the $200,000 job just 5-10 years down the road for most attorney's, and many doctors, is just as mythical.

Right! Exactly! Preach it, brotha!

This is all precisely why I demand, at the least, a decent, livable wage/QOL from Day 1, because I'm not willing to bet it all on a dream job ten years from now that will probably never come. I'm not asking for the world, I'm just asking to not be treated like crap.

By the way, I hope you didn't take my previous post to imply I thought doctors have the easy life. Several of my friends from high school and college went in to medical fields. I'm not envious at all. I'll take being a pilot over doctor any day. Still, the doctor residency vs. airline pilot junior FO comparison is flawed for the reasons I detailed above.

 

[jtrain609]

Right! Exactly! Preach it, brotha!

This is all precisely why I demand, at the least, a decent, livable wage/QOL from Day 1, because I'm not willing to bet it all on a dream job ten years from now that will probably never come. I'm not asking for the world, I'm just asking to not be treated like crap.

By the way, I hope you didn't take my previous post to imply I thought doctors have the easy life. Several of my friends from high school and college went in to medical fields. I'm not envious at all. I'll take being a pilot over doctor any day. Still, the doctor residency vs. airline pilot junior FO comparison is flawed for the reasons I detailed above.

I'm not entirely sure it is. My point is that the pay sucks from the start. Sure, a doctor can move from A to B without huge losses, but a pilot can do the same. You're saying that a pilot can't move AT ALL, but what you really mean is in the seniority based 121 system. A 10,000 hour pilot can use his skills for any number of jobs outside the part 121 field, where he will be compensated better from the start. There's nothing stopping a part 121 pilot from moving over into a corporate position except their attitude and drive to make the switch.

(And now mikecweb is going to come in here and tell me I'm an idiot, and don't know what I'm talking about, and how that'll never happen because you can't wash the stink off a part 121 pilot).

 

[Hacker15e]

it didn't say "Boeing" or "McDonald Douglas."

Do you know of any aircraft that say "McDonald Douglas" on them?

 

[bronco21016]

I really hope this doesn't come across as kicking a guy when he's down, because it's not what I'm intending at all...but do you see the irony of what you just wrote?

After writing a very well thought out post, which was dead on in many regards, particularly of how pilots are continually played against each other, you essentially say, "Mehh, I'll just keep on playing."

The downward spiral continues.

Do you work for one of the extremely biased news agencies such as MSNBC or FOX NEWS?

That quote was edited very much to make it appear I was strongly considering GoJet. The quote finished... "but it's GoJet". I know you intend no harm just pointing out the irony so no worries man.

I realize considering GoJet would very much be contradictory to what I wrote but if I was gonna go to GoJet I already would have so I could have grabbed my number earlier than many others. I've decided to ride out Pinnacle unless I can get an opportunity at some place decent like Compass or ExpressJet. At this time I don't have hours for either because I was very "fortunate" to be hired at Pinnacle by essentially winning the lottery.

I'm just not quite sure where to go when nobody decent will take me. Great Mistakes, Silver, GoJet, Republic.... these are the 121 places I would be employable at with my current hours. I think 135 sounds kinda nice and doable with decent pay and QOL but I don't even have 135 mins and I can't name a single place where it would be worth being an FO for 135. A friend even works flying FO on 727s and has said in the past that I could possibly work there and he makes decent money but lives on a 20 min call out 24 hours/day except for the 7th day. No thanks.... at least at the airline I get 1:45. For now I ride the Titantic and hopefully reach 1,500TT and a life raft before its too late.