Legal ramifications of majors not hiring "connection" carrier pilots

[wheelsup]

Let's say you have Delta, who contracts out their feed to SkyWest or ASA. SkyWest or ASA flies, all or in part, Delta passengers.

A pilot for SkyWest/ASA/etc interviews at Delta, and is turned down.

I'm wondering if a legal case can be made that Delta would be negligent in event of an accident with their passengers with that pilot. In the past, if I'm not mistaken, one "pro" for all this subcontracting is limited liability on the major partner (ie Continental in Colgan crash, Delta in Comair crash, etc.).

No real point to this, just some rambling. It's interesting to me that pilots can be deemed worthy to operate for a connection carrier carrying their mainline passengers but receive no interview or job offer when they apply to "mainline". If carriers were explicitly responsible and co-negligent for the actions of their subcontractors, the commuters would start to disappear.

 

[Kingairer]

They could argue that there are other qualifications that are safety related that would disqualify them. For example the applicant is a great pilot but didn't bring any cake to the interview, so didn't get the job.

 

[Soku39]

While I personally find it paradoxical and sad that I or any other ATP can fly 4 legs a day, day in and day out, year after year to far less capable airports, with far less support than the average 757 guy would ever have, and doing it safely under the banner and paint of the mainline carrier could make one anything other than "qualified" for mainline, well to that argument I would simply say "life is not fair", and that's all there is to it.

That said we have a job that a lot of other people want, so cake at job fairs, volunteering on your few precious days off from your understaffed regional where you're number 17 in base and still can't get weekends off while doing some BS online safety masters degree from wherever is what you have to do if you want to "make it"... well I suppose that's what the game we signed up to play.

 

[MikeD]

At one time back in the day, if one worked for Eagle, they'd never get hired by AA mainline. Just how it was.

 

[wheelsup]

I guess my point in all of this rambling is that maybe ALPA should be pursuing legislation that ties mainline carriers to their contractors directly and makes them expressly negligent. In order to increase pay collectively we need to reduce the outstanding suppliers of labor. Kinda like, doing what a union does.

If ALPA doesn't want to do that the FFD carriers really should break off and establish their own Union. I'm sorry but a few job fairs doesn't right the wrongs that ALPA has done to the contract pilots.

 

[GypsyPilot]

It is funny that Delta will find a pilot unqualified to work for them, yet be ok with that same pilot flying the next day to the most risky airport in their system (ASE).

At the same time, they might have a complete moron flying into JFK on a Delta mainline via a flow. Definitely a strange system.

 

[Seggy]

I guess my point in all of this rambling is that maybe ALPA should be pursuing legislation that ties mainline carriers to their contractors directly and makes them expressly negligent. In order to increase pay collectively we need to reduce the outstanding suppliers of labor. Kinda like, doing what a union does.

Agreed

If ALPA doesn't want to do that the FFD carriers really should break off and establish their own Union. I'm sorry but a few job fairs doesn't right the wrongs that ALPA has done to the contract pilots.

HAHAHAHHAHAHA, ok, sure. Out of curiosity, how would this union be funded?

 

[derg]

Doubtful. Different hiring standards.

They're hiring. Money better spent on honing interview skills rather than getting into another failed "I'm a lifer and I expect something" lawsuit JC Lawson style.

 

[PositionAndHold]

Agreed



HAHAHAHHAHAHA, ok, sure. Out of curiosity, how would this union be funded?

By the same funds regionals currently pay into ALPA. I've always wondered how ALPA can equally represent two groups of pilots that have different agendas. Legacy/regionals. Oh that's right they're not "career destinations" so why worry about them? Let's just take their dues.

 

[Seggy]

By the same funds regionals currently pay into ALPA. I've always wondered how ALPA can equally represent two groups of pilots that have different agendas. Legacy/regionals. Oh that's right they're not "career destinations" so why worry about them? Let's just take their dues.

You don't know what you are talking about. Smaller regional airlines in ALPA get hundreds of thousands of dollars from the career destination airlines to conduct their business. Smaller airlines would not be able to support a union with their dues monies.

Also, ALPA can very easily represent large or small airlines.

 

[pete2800]

You don't know what you are talking about. Smaller regional airlines in ALPA get hundreds of thousands of dollars from the career destination airlines to conduct their business. Smaller airlines would not be able to support a union with their dues monies.

Also, ALPA can very easily represent large or small airlines.

You'd be right, except Teamsters represents how many mainline carriers? And they still find a way to represent some regional airlines...

And yeah, the contracts they negotiate are a joke. But they are also pretty similar to the contracts that ALPA has negotiated for their regional carriers.

 

[PositionAndHold]

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Smaller regional airlines in ALPA get hundreds of thousands of dollars from the career destination airlines to conduct their business.

Also, ALPA can very easily represent large or small airlines.

You're saying ALPA national (career destination airlines) keep the regional MEC's in business out of the goodness of their heart? That they know there's no point in representing them because they don't bring in the same amount of revenue? They just give them free money to ease the pain that not all of them will end up at "career destination" airlines? So if these (regional) airlines bring nothing to the table, why would ALPA bother to represent them? It's amazing you couldn't sell this to SkyWest. It sounds soooo lucrative.

 

[Seggy]

You'd be right, except Teamsters represents how many mainline carriers? And they still find a way to represent some regional airlines...

You just made my point. The Teamsters don't have nearly the resources ALPA has. Also, the budgets for Teamster represented properties pale in
comparison.

And yeah, the contracts they negotiate are a joke. But they are also pretty similar to the contracts that ALPA has negotiated for their regional carriers.

Oxymoron there.

 

[Seggy]

You're saying ALPA national (career destination airlines) keep the regional MEC's in business out of the goodness of their heart? That they know there's no point in representing them because they don't bring in the same amount of revenue? They just give them free money to ease the pain that not all of them will end up at "career destination" airlines? So if these (regional) airlines bring nothing to the table, why would ALPA bother to represent them? It's amazing you couldn't sell this to SkyWest. It sounds soooo lucrative.

Look up the definition of union and then you will see why the career destination airlines put the money in the regional MECs.

 

[pete2800]

You just made my point. The Teamsters don't have nearly the resources ALPA has. Also, the budgets for Teamster represented properties pale in comparison.

Right. But somehow their results are basically the same for regional contracts.

 

[Seggy]

Right. But somehow their results are basically the same for regional contracts.

Look at recent improvements at Commutair and Compass compared to the RAH deal and you will see they couldn't be more different.

 

[PositionAndHold]

Look up the definition of union and then you will see why the career destination airlines put the money in the regional MECs.

How bout you tell me? You're usually so eager to educate. Why is it in ALPA Nationals best interest to protect people that won't ever see a job at a "career destination"? Why don't you tell me why ALPA doesn't fight to make all jobs they represent "career destinations"? It's because you can't have both. You can't make an FFD a "career destination" and at the same time a major a "career destination". It's always been a conflict of interest.

 

[Seggy]

How bout you tell me? You're usually so eager to educate. Why is it in ALPA Nationals best interest to protect people that won't ever see a job at a "career destination"? Why don't you tell me why ALPA doesn't fight to make all jobs they represent "career destinations"? It's because you can't have both. You can't make an FFD a "career destination" and at the same time a major a "career destination". It's always been a conflict of interest.

It is only a conflict of interest in your imagination.

ALPA doesn't control the business model of a Fee For Departure Carriers hence why those contracts can't be as lucrative as one at a 'National' as you put it.

 

[pete2800]

Look at recent improvements at Commutair and Compass compared to the RAH deal and you will see they couldn't be more different.

Recent staffing-driven developments notwithstanding... I'm talking more about the body of work of the last 15 years or so. Up until recently, the highest paying regional since about 2001 was represented by Teamsters. Meanwhile, more than one ALPA-represented regional negotiated themselves pay or contractual strength reductions.

 

[Seggy]

Recent staffing-driven developments notwithstanding... I'm talking more about the body of work of the last 15 years or so. Up until recently, the highest paying regional since about 2001 was represented by Teamsters. Meanwhile, more than one ALPA-represented regional negotiated themselves pay or contractual strength reductions.

They had high pay rates, sure, but pretty sure XJT, ASA, Comair, Mesaba, Eagle, and even maybe PSA and Piedmont guys/gals were taking more home with them, with better benefits, work rules, etc.