Is Part 91 Corporate Aviation this messed up or am I just an idiot... your thoughts?

[MikeD]

I disagree with that, I know a few people that have very good gig's flying citations.

Agree. I get paid well to fly one.

I'd say anyone that has a job flying a lear with tip tanks probably has a crappy job. .

Blasphemy. You heretic.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I flew a Lear with tip tanks up until about 3 years ago. Now I fly Lears without tip tanks.

 

[GypsyPilot]

At my commuter I fly with a LOT of ex 135 and 91 pilots. As much as a beating as the commuter world takes, comparatively, it's been my 2nd hand experience (thru others) that it's a much, much better long term bet.

Yeah, it's a tough call. I'm interviewing for a pretty nice corporate (large cabin aircraft) position tomorrow. I've flown corporate before, and I've seen the good and the bad. Right now I'm at Skywest bidding 50% in a base I love (not far from where I grew up), making ok money, and have a lot of time off. More importantly, I've enjoyed more stability here than any other aviation job (there are almost 600 pilots below me now, and counting!).

This place I'm interviewing at would have been my dream job a couple of years ago, but I'm just not sure about corporate anymore. The price would certainly have to be right to justify the risk.

 

[ClearedForOption]

Yeah, it's a tough call. I'm interviewing for a pretty nice corporate (large cabin aircraft) position tomorrow. I've flown corporate before, and I've seen the good and the bad. Right now I'm at Skywest bidding 50% in a base I love (not far from where I grew up), making ok money, and have a lot of time off. More importantly, I've enjoyed more stability here than any other aviation job (there are almost 600 pilots below me now, and counting!).

This place I'm interviewing at would have been my dream job a couple of years ago, but I'm just not sure about corporate anymore. The price would certainly have to be right to justify the risk.

Congrats... I hope it goes well for you tomorrow.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Congrats... I hope it goes well for you tomorrow.

Thanks man! I hope everything's been going well for you! Holding a line in LGB now?

 

[GX]

I was debating if I should throw any input into this or not, since he went and did what he did to you, I'll go ahead and throw my story into the mix, and whatever the fall out is, so be it.

I'm the one that left him hanging. I hated the guy so much after three weeks I woke up one morning and just started driving 1100 miles back home. The job is great on paper, but what it comes down to is that you're there to reinforce his ego, which he couldn't fit in a 747; much less a mustang.

First, The entire time I was flying for him all he did was talk about how lucky I was, and how good of a guy he was, and at the same saying he could hire the guy TexasFlyer is talking about for cheap. In my experience, if someone is trying to tell you how great they are, or how lucky you are to work for them, its anything but. Good jobs and good people speak for themselves.

Second, Dealing with this guy isnt a matter of having "thick skin." Anyone who knows me knows I dont really get offended, and this guy never offended me, he was just an ass. I was berated about my weight more times than I can count (which I am a fat ass,) but this guy took it to the next level and really just kind of pissed me off. If you like hearing an old fart talk in intimate detail about all the things he likes about vaginas, then sign up. If you enjoy constantly reassuring someone how great they are, then sign up. You know the kind of guys that take up two spots in a full lot? This is that guy. He also enjoyed pulling around and cutting off people who were trying to make a left turn if he thought they were taking too long. Not really huge faults in the grand scheme of humanity, but when you factor that in with his general personality and the way he likes to treat people, (wont get into specifics) you have a guy that you dont want to spend any extended period of time around.

Third, All that might not be a big deal if you were able to get away from him, but you're not. When you're on the road with him, you're basically a whipping post. I was around him 24/7 putting up with his BS. Forget about staying in a hotel, basically the only place you ever go his is second house, and you stay there with him. Its not a bad place, but I really didnt even wanna be in the same zip code as the guy.

Honestly, I'm not trying to rip into the guy, if I wanted to do that I would share details, which I wont. This was just a slight overview.

To answer your questions TF:

No, not all corporate jobs are like what you experienced. He fed me all the same lines, and I was on the verge of committing to a place, but common sense got the better of me. I really think what happened to you was for the best.

Also, the guy isnt that smart. Not saying that as an insult, but just because he's rich doesn't make him a genius. The phrase more money than brains gets thrown around for a reason. Spending 3.2M on a brand new mustang doesnt mean you're smart, it means you're an egomaniac who wants to play corporate pilot in your spare time. Its a red flag when you dont mind blowing that kind of money, but then seriously bitch about burning 90gal/hr. and even renting a car and having your co pilot drive 6 hours all over the place because you dont wanna burn gas in the plane.

Theres a reason I noped the hell out of there in spectacular fashion. I'll admit to leaving the guy hanging, but if you're not willing as an employer to act professional, then dont expect the same out of your employees.

In reading this, there is one glaring thing that I am surprised has not been noted by other members. First and foremost is a lack of good decision making. Taking two spots is a careless decision, in my opinion, but pulling around someone waiting to make a left only to be in front of them is hazardous and reckless. One need not detail why, correct? It's a matter of time before these careless decisions begin to play out in the cockpit, with someone else's life at stake. He is free to gamble with his life, but start playing with someone else's and there's a problem.

I'm fairly certain that I would have decided to check out once he pulled out the premature left turning tendency with me in the vehicle. I'm sure there are many more examples like the one you gave, CMill, but that one would have been the deal breaker. I would know it would be a matter of time before he did something equally careless and reckless with me in the cockpit with him. When it comes down to it, there may not be enough time to unscrew the guy before the mistake he made kills both of us in the cockpit. And how does the SIC convince PIC that he's taking the airplane before a mistake gets out of hand?

"I have the controls"
"No. I got this. I'll fix...."

 

[TexasFlyer]

I was debating if I should throw any input into this or not, since he went and did what he did to you, I'll go ahead and throw my story into the mix, and whatever the fall out is, so be it.

I'm the one that left him hanging. I hated the guy so much after three weeks I woke up one morning and just started driving 1100 miles back home. The job is great on paper, but what it comes down to is that you're there to reinforce his ego, which he couldn't fit in a 747; much less a mustang.

First, The entire time I was flying for him all he did was talk about how lucky I was, and how good of a guy he was, and at the same saying he could hire the guy TexasFlyer is talking about for cheap. In my experience, if someone is trying to tell you how great they are, or how lucky you are to work for them, its anything but. Good jobs and good people speak for themselves.

Second, Dealing with this guy isnt a matter of having "thick skin." Anyone who knows me knows I dont really get offended, and this guy never offended me, he was just an ass. I was berated about my weight more times than I can count (which I am a fat ass,) but this guy took it to the next level and really just kind of pissed me off. If you like hearing an old fart talk in intimate detail about all the things he likes about vaginas, then sign up. If you enjoy constantly reassuring someone how great they are, then sign up. You know the kind of guys that take up two spots in a full lot? This is that guy. He also enjoyed pulling around and cutting off people who were trying to make a left turn if he thought they were taking too long. Not really huge faults in the grand scheme of humanity, but when you factor that in with his general personality and the way he likes to treat people, (wont get into specifics) you have a guy that you dont want to spend any extended period of time around.

Third, All that might not be a big deal if you were able to get away from him, but you're not. When you're on the road with him, you're basically a whipping post. I was around him 24/7 putting up with his BS. Forget about staying in a hotel, basically the only place you ever go his is second house, and you stay there with him. Its not a bad place, but I really didnt even wanna be in the same zip code as the guy.

Honestly, I'm not trying to rip into the guy, if I wanted to do that I would share details, which I wont. This was just a slight overview.

To answer your questions TF:

No, not all corporate jobs are like what you experienced. He fed me all the same lines, and I was on the verge of committing to a place, but common sense got the better of me. I really think what happened to you was for the best.

Also, the guy isnt that smart. Not saying that as an insult, but just because he's rich doesn't make him a genius. The phrase more money than brains gets thrown around for a reason. Spending 3.2M on a brand new mustang doesnt mean you're smart, it means you're an egomaniac who wants to play corporate pilot in your spare time. Its a red flag when you dont mind blowing that kind of money, but then seriously bitch about burning 90gal/hr. and even renting a car and having your co pilot drive 6 hours all over the place because you dont wanna burn gas in the plane.

Theres a reason I noped the hell out of there in spectacular fashion. I'll admit to leaving the guy hanging, but if you're not willing as an employer to act professional, then dont expect the same out of your employees.

I will simply say, this is all true and we are talking about the same person.

Too bad you coud not get away when with him. I was using the Mercedes in Florida to go out most all hours and ended up all over from Orlando to Deland and Daytona. This was on my own time. He never had me drive anywhere for business. We worked a couple days a week and the rest of the time I was able to enjoy. I am not the kind of person to be seen in $80,000 cars, but I enjoyed the freedom he allowed me to use the Mercedes and Harley while in Florida. I also met some great friends in Port Orange and Deland since I went out most every night. A couple nights I never returned back to the house since I was with my new friends I met and just crashed at one of their places. I don't think he knew I was gone most all the time.

I did learn though, wash the car every day it is used or he will be upset! But little stuff like that I could deal with. So I really was enjoying it and I was able to deal with his eccentric personality. I just had to learn what would keep him happy since he would not tell you, but you can figure it out by being aware of his actions. I also made it a point to try to enjoy lunch with him every other day to learn about him and how he became a success, although most conversations centered around the people around us since he did not talk business much.

When in Delaware I was using his Rubicon and stayed at his farm in Maryland a few times. I just found a nice condo in Rehoboth less than a mile from the beach to share for $490 a month plus 1/3 utilities on a year lease. I was looking forward to that move. So I did not spend much time in the house there as I was either researching places to live on the iPad he got me or out looking at places to live.

And yes. His flying and driving is as eccentric as his personality. I hope the new SIC can watch over him and keep him and the operation safe. I think it is a great job for the right person who can do what I was in the process of doing. Establishing their own life outside of his. Sounds like the new SIC pretty much already has that situation. So if he can keep the operation safe and handle the opinionated personality, he'll do okay in the job.

So here is advice to the new guy:
1) Do not order the fried chicken at Federalsburg Diner. It takes too long and you need to be quick when eating with him. So go at his pace. Try the chicken well done at Dustin's BBQ the way he gets it as it is surprisingly good.
2) Run the numbers on the plane and always do a thorough preflight action as he will do none. And integrate his way into the plan and he'll be happy (i.e., there is a better route to file but just file it his way since he's probably going that way anyway!). Also prep him on the numbers and weather since he won't know either.
3) Verify all checklists for him or something may get missed (yaw dampener is missed on every flight).
4) Don't worry, the plane can easily handle 3000 foot runways and he will be proud to show you how the plane will stop in 1500 feet if you get up on the ABS. But still run the numbers in the heat of the day. He is a darn good stick and rudder but remember, you are there to keep him safe and don't let him get overconfident in what the little jet can do.
5) Be quick on the radios. If not, plan to be in the clouds when you may not want to be in them.
6) Know when to keep your mouth shut based on who is surrounding you (this will make sense after a couple weeks).
7) Don't undercut anyone in the future as what comes around goes around. So I look forward to the day when you make decent money finally and the same thing happens to you. And see how you feel when the little punk undercuts you. Then I will remind you of this post and how you thrashed my job (and yeah, you are damn right I just said that).
7) Good luck. Read number seven again. And please keep him safe.

 

[ClearedForOption]

Thanks man! I hope everything's been going well for you! Holding a line in LGB now?

Not even close... I'll be on reserve till I die, but at least I am at home for now. Which is an awesome feeling after commuting for so long. I'm hoping that we see some west coast growth once the new terminal is completed in LGB. (then maybe, I might see a line before I can hold Capt. on the east coast) Are you still in central Cali?

TO the OP - It sounds like this whole thing was a textbook abusive relationship. Yelling followed by the borrowing of $80,000 cars - having to do things a particular way or there would be 'consequences.' By the description of his driving I wouldn't want to share the same sky with the guy with a planeload of paying passengers. (esp. ref #5 on your list - I really wouldn't want to be coming in IFR when he is taking off.) If he can't follow a checklist - classic anti-authority, rules are for the other guy... if that is indicative of his overall attitude then he should not be flying. I hesitate to say - even a call to the FAA or the insurer of the plane might be in order.

 

[PositionAndHold]

So here is advice to the new guy:
1) Do not order the fried chicken at Federalsburg Diner. It takes too long and you need to be quick when eating with him. So go at his pace. Try the chicken well done at Dustin's BBQ the way he gets it as it is surprisingly good.
2) Run the numbers on the plane and always do a thorough preflight action as he will do none. And integrate his way into the plan and he'll be happy (i.e., there is a better route to file but just file it his way since he's probably going that way anyway!). Also prep him on the numbers and weather since he won't know either.
3) Verify all checklists for him or something may get missed (yaw dampener is missed on every flight).
4) Don't worry, the plane can easily handle 3000 foot runways and he will be proud to show you how the plane will stop in 1500 feet if you get up on the ABS. But still run the numbers in the heat of the day. He is a darn good stick and rudder but remember, you are there to keep him safe and don't let him get overconfident in what the little jet can do.
5) Be quick on the radios. If not, plan to be in the clouds when you may not want to be in them.
6) Know when to keep your mouth shut based on who is surrounding you (this will make sense after a couple weeks).
7) Don't undercut anyone in the future as what comes around goes around. So I look forward to the day when you make decent money finally and the same thing happens to you. And see how you feel when the little punk undercuts you. Then I will remind you of this post and how you thrashed my job (and yeah, you are damn right I just said that).
7) Good luck. Read number seven again. And please keep him safe.

NONE of the tasks you listed belong in ANY respectable pt. 91 job. NOTHING. If you see even one of those in the future, from a fellow crew member or boss, RUN. But hey, at least you know what to look for now. Think of your first crappy corp job like a marriage. You got your first one out of the way, the next should be better.

When did "eccentric" become an excuse for people to act like an •? Don't make excuses for people, their A-holes, plain and simple. I've met rich A-holes and poor A-holes, money has nothing to do with their persona. I guess when they're the rich kind they become "eccentric". You'll find that good pt. 91 job, it's out there. People think all corp flying is what you experienced, it's not. The horror stories just get more press. Guys tend not to post how good they have it, it's just the way it is. Trust me you will be thanking your lucky stars in a few months you got out of there. I know I did when the •...I mean eccentric co-worker went behind my back, hired another guy and just stopped calling me for trips. This is after working with just him for a full year. See, we all have a horror story. It makes me feel that much more greatfull for the guy I fly with and the people I fly for now. And the guy I fly with now, I replaced his horror story.

 

[Mark815]

One need not detail why, correct? It's a matter of time before these careless decisions begin to play out in the cockpit, with someone else's life at stake. He is free to gamble with his life, but start playing with someone else's and there's a problem.

"I have the controls"
"No. I got this. I'll fix...."

And here in-lies the problem with the 400hr super pilot. While this guy may try something stupid, will the brand new young pilot who just signed a crummy contract have what it takes to take the controls and say "No" to what sounds like an ass of an owner?

 

[killbilly]

I hate to pile-on - but with all the stuff that this client seems to require - "run the checklists because he won't", and "be quick on the radios" and "run the numbers because he won't"...

Does that mean if you miss something on an off day you're both dead?

Based on what you guys have written, I wouldn't fly with him.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Makes a 20 year old Riddle Rat w/Ipod and hair gel look like a walk in the park.

 

[TexasFlyer]

Does that mean if you miss something on an off day you're both dead?

Yes it does. That is why he needs an experienced SIC that is truly capable of being the pilot-flying, although he is not the pilot flying. So hopefully the new guy has experience in twin turbine and preferably this aircraft.

Rumor is he is coming out of Flight Safety as a low time right seater so luckily he may know the plane and keep the operation safe. He has a place to live in Florida as he may be from there. And he also has a place to live near Delaware as well so he would not have to stay with the owner as he can pretty easily live in both places using his own resources and his family. This is all an unconfirmed rumor though from 'the street'.

It's probably best I never know who he is specifically. I wish him well. And in the future when I am in a position with hiring authority, guess who I will only offer $30k to in the future when he wants to be a Captain in one the shiny little jets I may manage. Of course, that is if I would even make the offer at all. I would probably just skip that resume.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Yeah. For the most part it's an empty Threat, because I would not seek, nor would I accept the Republicrat Nomination for Chief Pilot, but if Exigent Circumstance ever Called Me To Serve, the sort of dudes who act as buttboy to some egocentric jackass in hopes of getting a lot of extremely questionable "turbine PIC" would find their resumes in the circular file most ricky tick, whatever their "times".

I don't want to work with a Minion, and I for damn sure don't want any Minions working for me.

 

[jhugz]

Flying for owner operators is the worst. I've known way to many people burned in this industry flying that way.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Flying for owner operators is the worst. I've known way to many people burned in this industry flying that way.

Definitely seems to be low on the totem pole for satisfying and non-scary pilot positions.

 

[ClearedForOption]

Flying for owner operators is the worst. I've known way to many people burned in this industry flying that way.

I had a gig where I was flying a O/O before I went to the regionals... it was a good experience, while it lasted. It had some ups and downs - and one other O/O that I flew for, well... he tried to kill me a couple of times and then not want to pay me for my services. Which ended up affecting my relationship with the flight school I freelanced at. (They were 'buddies' - the O/O and the flight school owner.) In the end, I had very mixed results and would not go back except on the side or as a 'day rate' guy.

Definitely seems to be low on the totem pole for satisfying and non-scary pilot positions.

How was the interview... good feeling or no? PM me if you don't feel like broadcasting it.

 

[GypsyPilot]

I had a gig where I was flying a O/O before I went to the regionals... it was a good experience, while it lasted. It had some ups and downs - and one other O/O that I flew for, well... he tried to kill me a couple of times and then not want to pay me for my services. Which ended up affecting my relationship with the flight school I freelanced at. (They were 'buddies' - the O/O and the flight school owner.) In the end, I had very mixed results and would not go back except on the side or as a 'day rate' guy.



How was the interview... good feeling or no? PM me if you don't feel like broadcasting it.

PM Sent!

 

[Corporate Pilot]

Agree. I get paid well to fly one.



Blasphemy. You heretic.

+1 on the Citation pay.

We also have a Cessna 340 and a I earned some on my pay in it today. We were not as close to the storm just NE of GTU as the picture shows and when we turned to ADS that shower we went through was just a shower. It has a nice Radar (RDR-2000), strike finder and XM WX. Nothing bad but one of the pax had beer dripping off the ceiling. I warned them it would be rough at times.

He also spilled a full cup of coffee on the way down in smooth air. The day before I had a lady clean the carpet, She will be back out tomorrow.