Is Part 91 Corporate Aviation this messed up or am I just an idiot... your thoughts?

[rframe]

They don't want to make you more valuable to competing carriers. Simple as that.

Interesting. In the corporate world I've had many training engagements where the company has simply said, "we will pay for this, but if you leave within 6 months (or 12 months or whatever), then you have to pay back a prorata share". If the company terminates employment nothing is due. Seems fair to me.

A few years ago Mattel (the toy company) sent me to a series of specialized training classes which cost them around $25,000 in one year. Shorty after they had a 10,000 member "workforce reduction" and half my department (including me) was part of it so they just had to eat all of that cost. I'm surprised the airlines dont do something similar.

 

[sr22driver]

lol. I would certainly not do that to anyone. Plus his tail number is blocked from flight tracking. It's not worth the time or effort when I have two priority right now.

First since that was a W-2 I called unemployment to see if once I get my last check I can begin to get some help. He is paying me through the end of the month since he felt that was the right thing to do since he would expect the same notice from me if I left him suddenly.

Second I will be very selective and begin to look for something else that pays reasonable and will treat me as good as I treat them. After all, good people do not remain unemployed for long. I already have a day contract lined up for Thursday with a great client of mine that loves me and a couple others for next week as well. So by the time his paychecks run dry hopefully I have enough contract work to where I don't ultimately need any unemployment money.

The dream is still there. It just sucks having to chase it so hard!

I'm glad to hear that you're taking the high road.
Most of what I wrote was in jest but the feelings behind it were genuine.
My CP is an old Veitnam Helo guy and the guys hanging around here are all NASCAR guys. To say that they are opinionated would be an understatement.
I flew contract until the gig I've got fell into my lap (right place, right time) so I know how it feels.
I can also say that when you land in the right job it's a damn nice feeling.

 

[mshunter]

Just an FYI, money can't by brains, and brains don't just get money. I've known plenty of rich people who are completely stupid idiots. They're not idiots, just cheap Citation Mustang owners. It's like showing up tobacco Porsche rally in. 914. Yeah, you own a Porsche, but i's a "poor mans Porsche."

 

[jtrain609]

Interesting. In the corporate world I've had many training engagements where the company has simply said, "we will pay for this, but if you leave within 6 months (or 12 months or whatever), then you have to pay back a prorata share". If the company terminates employment nothing is due. Seems fair to me.

A few years ago Mattel (the toy company) sent me to a series of specialized training classes which cost them around $25,000 in one year. Shorty after they had a 10,000 member "workforce reduction" and half my department (including me) was part of it so they just had to eat all of that cost. I'm surprised the airlines dont do something similar.

They do, it's called a training contract.

 

[FlyingScot]

I hope I didn't come off wrong in my original post. I wasn't trying to be rude, or trying to say that you aren't worth $55k. I was simply pointing out that I think it is high to sit right seat in a single pilot jet. Again, I only make $50k to sit left seat in that same plane.

That's what I have been seeing for a Mustang PIC job and that's coming in with your own type rating. I have also seen companies advertise for a C500 Captain for 135 ops for $50K, "don't apply if your not typed and current".

So I didn't word my original question right. I understand that with the Single Pilot type, a right seat pilot is not required. My question was weather or not an SIC type rating was required to fly in the right seat with a pilot who is not single pilot rated? I didn't think so, but am curious.

Maybe low time PIC and required for insurance or the guys a crumby pilot and while he won't admit it knows he needs babysitting.

 

[FlyingScot]

Is this why people think that the SIC type is worthless?

It took 8 weeks of training where a handful of people failed out and a checkride that mirrored a PIC ride except for one or two items to get my SIC type.

I am assuming you are talking about 8 weeks for a regional? I know someone who flew SIC in a GIII part 91. I believe the training involved one approach and 3 bounces. I have also flown with PTF FOs part 135 that "passed" a checkride, not sure what the standards were for that checkride, or if there were any. Not all SIC checkrides are created equal especially part 91.

 

[jafra98]

Flying million dollar jets with persons onboard for a burguer flippers salary, that sucks..........

 

[killbilly]

TF -

Really sorry this happened to you. I am glad to know that you acted on good faith. That old saying about no good deed going unpunished seems to ring true here. While you haven't said it, I am guessing that in addition to flying the thing, there would be a considerable amount of aircraft management and perhaps other services for the owner.

If the undercutting pilot is not prepared for what will ultimately befall him here, (what goes around indeed comes around) then I suspect you might get a call back from the owner asking you to come back. The question: how would you handle it if he did call you back and ask you to return ?

 

[TexasFlyer]

TF -

Really sorry this happened to you. I am glad to know that you acted on good faith. That old saying about no good deed going unpunished seems to ring true here. While you haven't said it, I am guessing that in addition to flying the thing, there would be a considerable amount of aircraft management and perhaps other services for the owner.

If the undercutting pilot is not prepared for what will ultimately befall him here, (what goes around indeed comes around) then I suspect you might get a call back from the owner asking you to come back. The question: how would you handle it if he did call you back and ask you to return ?

There were not really any other duties other than the typical preflight planning (if you don't do it, it won't be done), keeping things safe on the flight (he will miss things so keep checklist handy and do the call outs an SIC should do even though he prefers you not to), and then simply keeping the aircraft clean. The additional duty was not actually work. It is having very thick skin as the Owner-SIC relationship is very very unique. I don[t think many would last long without being mature and having other business experience dealing with high net worth eccentrics.

And if asked to go back. Not without a employment contract. I would value the conversation with the owner though if asked. Trust has been broken. Just over a week ago he had me looking at condos and promising him that i would not leave him hanging last a recent pilot did (the last pilot walked out and left him stranded!). Needless to say any more on that though.

Trust is broken. I would not return unless we got a contract in writing. I demand the same salary, but paid out in a slightly different way that makes more sense. Also need the type rating within 90 days. I would sign for 24 months. Huge penalty if either of us broke the contract.

But why would he do that when we all on here know there is some other $25k to $30k a year 400 hour pilot that would not require such a contract. Plus he knows a lot of retired airline guys who would gladly go up for free with him time to time (that was mentioned a couple times over the weeks).

He may realize over the next few weeks, not everything is as it seems and not all pilots are equal. Just like I learned, not everything is as it seems when employed either! He lost his best SIC that would keep him safe and cold actually fly that plane if needed as I have 30 hours as pilot-flying from before. And I was the best long term future PIC for him and any future company flying as well.

Anyway. I wish him and the new SIC the best and I hope it all works out for them and they stay safe.

 

[FlyingScot]

There were not really any other duties other than the typical preflight planning.

Based on your story I know you did not have a contract. Without a contract duties often expand to non aviation things like hotel reservations and rental car details, which are not out of the ordinary in corporate aviation. Its the dog walking, dry cleaning and car washing where you have to draw the line.

 

[killbilly]

There were not really any other duties other than the typical preflight planning (if you don't do it, it won't be done), keeping things safe on the flight (he will miss things so keep checklist handy and do the call outs an SIC should do even though he prefers you not to), and then simply keeping the aircraft clean. The additional duty was not actually work. It is having very thick skin as the Owner-SIC relationship is very very unique. I don[t think many would last long without being mature and having other business experience dealing with high net worth eccentrics.

The bolded part screams out at me, TF. You and I are maybe wired differently.

In my career, I have had to deal with several of those "high net worth eccentrics" and the experience was never, ever worth the money. Some people - I'm not saying all - but some people reach a position or level of success and believe that they are Leaders Of Men who should be deferred to in some meaningful way by the people they interact with. It's possible that they can no longer see another person as a peer. And I've seen the gamut run from just cold-fish-snobbery all the way to full-psycho tantrums. (We had one client who fired all of us in one night. Three times. That's a story for a beer.)

My point is that if you've got the wiring for it, that's cool, but your wording kinda says that the guy is a total jerk. And it's just not worth it.

I'm now wondering if he also gravitated toward the "kid" because he'd be able to bully/boss him about vs. someone who seems to command more respect?

Anyway. This may turn out to be a very good blessing for you. It's a good story to tell in an interview in any case, especially maintaining the excellent positive attitude you have here. Good on ya.

 

[Mark815]

I already had the job. I actually was away from home over 3 weeks and working the job. This week is the week I was sent home to relocate my belongings from Texas to the condo I secured for myself at the 'home base'. Which is what I was encouraged to do.

This other 'lesser pilot' popped up because while I was doing my move the owner needed someone to do one flight with him since I would be relocating. I could not do the flight as it would take me a very reasonable 6 days to pack and relocate 2,000 miles across the country. I can be mobile quick since in aviaiton when I am asked to jump I ask how high and how far! So I put all the ducks in a row quickly. When the owner asked around for the 'temp pilot' he got the 'cheap referral'.

This is what was explained to me by the owner. So yeah, it was not an offer. I already been working for just over 3 weeks on the job.

That's bull. I'm really sorry that happened to you, but it sounds like a case of someone you don't want to work for. I can't believe someone would do that to a person.

So I just read your post to my CP and three or four guys in the pilot lounge at JQF. We are all in agreement that you got hosed and crippling sexual disease should befall the kid who undercut you.
There has been heated discussion about placing an ad in the local paper calling the guy out and in any aviation publication you can manage to get an ad placed with the guys name and the tail number of the airplane.
I would put the tail number in my flight aware alerts and call every FBO at any airport he flys to and let the lineguys know what kind of DBag was headed their way.
Kind of a scorched earth way to approach it, but what's the worse thing that can happen?

A bit extreme but I like it. It's been said many a times, but aviation is a very small community. Piss off the wrong person and you can kiss your career goodbye.

But why would he do that when we all on here know there is some other $25k to $30k a year 400 hour pilot that would not require such a contract.

Well when the stuff hits the fan, and decisions need to be made, he may be regretting his decision to go with a 400hr wonder pilot.

 

[sr22driver]

A bit extreme but I like it. It's been said many a times, but aviation is a very small community. Piss off the wrong person and you can kiss your career goodbye.

I know that it's a small community, and I hope the 400hr wunderkind has an opportunity to learn that lesson as well.
I've been a staunch supporter of the "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" rule.
I'd never really call ahead but damn it's fun to think about it.

 

[GypsyPilot]

MAJOR difference. I was referring to doing it the 91/ frequent 135 way, not the 121 way. I'm fully aware that a 121 (or 91k or better pax 135) SIC type is the real deal and practically the same as a PIC type, but when you do it the "ATP guy gave me some instruction and a few bounces and the FSDO put it on my cert" way, I'm less than impressed.

I've experienced both types of SIC "checkrides", and agree 100% with you (and JTrain).

 

[GypsyPilot]

Why wouldn't they just have you do a PIC type then? Serious question.

Most 121 checkrides are for the PIC type now... A few months ago I passed my PIC type ride at a regional. It was pretty much the same ride as my SIC checkride when I was a new hire (very thorough, but they prepare you well).

 

[cmill]

From what you described, theres probably a good reason the last guy left him holding the bag. If he's the type of person that would encourage you to commit to moving, and then drop you, what does that say about him?

Also, sometimes its not about having thick skin, or being able to deal with eccentrics, its about not being treated like garbage. If your dignity is worth 55k, then go for it.

 

[Inverted]

Also, I'd hate to say it, but $55k is way over paid to sit right seat. As a comparison, I am PIC on a Mustang. I am single pilot typed (which is why I don't know the SIC question above) and was hired to fly mostly Part 91 with occasional 135 mixed in. My salary is $50k with $25/hr for charter flights. This was to fly 300-350 hours per year.

Umm no. 50k for PIC in a jet is way underpaid.

 

[cmill]

I was debating if I should throw any input into this or not, since he went and did what he did to you, I'll go ahead and throw my story into the mix, and whatever the fall out is, so be it.

I'm the one that left him hanging. I hated the guy so much after three weeks I woke up one morning and just started driving 1100 miles back home. The job is great on paper, but what it comes down to is that you're there to reinforce his ego, which he couldn't fit in a 747; much less a mustang.

First, The entire time I was flying for him all he did was talk about how lucky I was, and how good of a guy he was, and at the same saying he could hire the guy TexasFlyer is talking about for cheap. In my experience, if someone is trying to tell you how great they are, or how lucky you are to work for them, its anything but. Good jobs and good people speak for themselves.

Second, Dealing with this guy isnt a matter of having "thick skin." Anyone who knows me knows I dont really get offended, and this guy never offended me, he was just an ass. I was berated about my weight more times than I can count (which I am a fat ass,) but this guy took it to the next level and really just kind of pissed me off. If you like hearing an old fart talk in intimate detail about all the things he likes about vaginas, then sign up. If you enjoy constantly reassuring someone how great they are, then sign up. You know the kind of guys that take up two spots in a full lot? This is that guy. He also enjoyed pulling around and cutting off people who were trying to make a left turn if he thought they were taking too long. Not really huge faults in the grand scheme of humanity, but when you factor that in with his general personality and the way he likes to treat people, (wont get into specifics) you have a guy that you dont want to spend any extended period of time around.

Third, All that might not be a big deal if you were able to get away from him, but you're not. When you're on the road with him, you're basically a whipping post. I was around him 24/7 putting up with his BS. Forget about staying in a hotel, basically the only place you ever go his is second house, and you stay there with him. Its not a bad place, but I really didnt even wanna be in the same zip code as the guy.

Honestly, I'm not trying to rip into the guy, if I wanted to do that I would share details, which I wont. This was just a slight overview.

To answer your questions TF:

No, not all corporate jobs are like what you experienced. He fed me all the same lines, and I was on the verge of committing to a place, but common sense got the better of me. I really think what happened to you was for the best.

Also, the guy isnt that smart. Not saying that as an insult, but just because he's rich doesn't make him a genius. The phrase more money than brains gets thrown around for a reason. Spending 3.2M on a brand new mustang doesnt mean you're smart, it means you're an egomaniac who wants to play corporate pilot in your spare time. Its a red flag when you dont mind blowing that kind of money, but then seriously bitch about burning 90gal/hr. and even renting a car and having your co pilot drive 6 hours all over the place because you dont wanna burn gas in the plane.

Theres a reason I noped the hell out of there in spectacular fashion. I'll admit to leaving the guy hanging, but if you're not willing as an employer to act professional, then dont expect the same out of your employees.

 

[wheelsup]

At my commuter I fly with a LOT of ex 135 and 91 pilots. As much as a beating as the commuter world takes, comparatively, it's been my 2nd hand experience (thru others) that it's a much, much better long term bet.

 

[Patrick]

I was debating if I should throw any input into this or not, since he went and did what he did to you, I'll go ahead and throw my story into the mix, and whatever the fall out is, so be it.

I'm the one that left him hanging. I hated the guy so much after three weeks I woke up one morning and just started driving 1100 miles back home. The job is great on paper, but what it comes down to is that you're there to reinforce his ego, which he couldn't fit in a 747; much less a mustang.

First, The entire time I was flying for him all he did was talk about how lucky I was, and how good of a guy he was, and at the same saying he could hire the guy TexasFlyer is talking about for cheap. In my experience, if someone is trying to tell you how great they are, or how lucky you are to work for them, its anything but. Good jobs and good people speak for themselves.

Second, Dealing with this guy isnt a matter of having "thick skin." Anyone who knows me knows I dont really get offended, and this guy never offended me, he was just an ass. I was berated about my weight more times than I can count (which I am a fat ass,) but this guy took it to the next level and really just kind of pissed me off. If you like hearing an old fart talk in intimate detail about all the things he likes about vaginas, then sign up. If you enjoy constantly reassuring someone how great they are, then sign up. You know the kind of guys that take up two spots in a full lot? This is that guy. He also enjoyed pulling around and cutting off people who were trying to make a left turn if he thought they were taking too long. Not really huge faults in the grand scheme of humanity, but when you factor that in with his general personality and the way he likes to treat people, (wont get into specifics) you have a guy that you dont want to spend any extended period of time around.

Third, All that might not be a big deal if you were able to get away from him, but you're not. When you're on the road with him, you're basically a whipping post. I was around him 24/7 putting up with his BS. Forget about staying in a hotel, basically the only place you ever go his is second house, and you stay there with him. Its not a bad place, but I really didnt even wanna be in the same zip code as the guy.

Honestly, I'm not trying to rip into the guy, if I wanted to do that I would share details, which I wont. This was just a slight overview.

To answer your questions TF:

No, not all corporate jobs are like what you experienced. He fed me all the same lines, and I was on the verge of committing to a place, but common sense got the better of me. I really think what happened to you was for the best.

Also, the guy isnt that smart. Not saying that as an insult, but just because he's rich doesn't make him a genius. The phrase more money than brains gets thrown around for a reason. Spending 3.2M on a brand new mustang doesnt mean you're smart, it means you're an egomaniac who wants to play corporate pilot in your spare time. Its a red flag when you dont mind blowing that kind of money, but then seriously bitch about burning 90gal/hr. and even renting a car and having your co pilot drive 6 hours all over the place because you dont wanna burn gas in the plane.

Theres a reason I noped the hell out of there in spectacular fashion. I'll admit to leaving the guy hanging, but if you're not willing as an employer to act professional, then dont expect the same out of your employees.

Damn man. I was happy for you when you were hired, and now sorry to hear that this didn't work.

I'm sure there are better and worse people in the word, but the guys like you just described, none of us want to work for. C'est la vie.