Is Part 91 Corporate Aviation this messed up or am I just an idiot... your thoughts?

[jtrain609]

Won't provide any furhter details beyond what I put here since I do not want to incriminate anyone. The world is too small. And what comes around goes around. So I never complain, I just seek comments and advice. I take what is handed to me and run with it. I always do the best job possible. And never be negative and keep a good sense of humor as the more you smile the more opportunity you have.

If you want my advice, it would be to apply to a quality regional (ExpressJet/Skywest) and move to base until you get off reserve. The only place the airlines suck at is the internet.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

91 flying can be really messed up. I have personally seen the end of two jobs due to: The owner of the aircraft going to jail and the bank taking back the airplane.

One was a citation job the other a PC-12.

I was just speaking with two G550 pilots in Toronto two days ago. One of them made the comment "oh my wife calls it the 4 year plan." Meaning every four years you loose your job and start over. We were discussing, you guessed it, the lack of stable flying jobs. Keep in mind these guys were grey haired G550 drivers at the top of their game.

It doesn't get much better...

 

[MoMatt]

If you knew the whole job description the $55k range on the position is reasonable. I won't put any more detail than I listed though since it's as far into it as I am comfortable describing. It is a very tough work environment where you need 'thick skin' but any professional should be fine with that in my opinion as it makes the experience interesting and at times humorous.

My times are just about 2600/ 400 with 50 logged turbine as SIC (90 total turbine for insurance purposes).

I'd chalk it up to bad luck myself. Keep your sense of humor.

It seems to me at first glance that the design and marketing of that airplane screams for "cheapskates" to buy them and never commit fully to the financial obligation required to run a safe, professional corporate flight operation. If he wants to play pilot and fly himself around to his meetings, get the single pilot type. If he can't / doesn't want to, realize there's a reason two pilots are needed and build that into the cost of operation. Which, I suppose he did but then found a guy that would do it for half. Welcome to aviation.

If he can't afford that, buy a Cirrus (they're not THAT much slower, are they?).

So I'd say it's bad luck with a bit of everything else mixed in. I don't have any direct experience with Part 91 turbine, but I don't think your story is that uncommon.

 

[TexasFlyer]

The OP had an offer on the table, and then the owner went for the lowest bidder..

I already had the job. I actually was away from home over 3 weeks and working the job. This week is the week I was sent home to relocate my belongings from Texas to the condo I secured for myself at the 'home base'. Which is what I was encouraged to do.

This other 'lesser pilot' popped up because while I was doing my move the owner needed someone to do one flight with him since I would be relocating. I could not do the flight as it would take me a very reasonable 6 days to pack and relocate 2,000 miles across the country. I can be mobile quick since in aviaiton when I am asked to jump I ask how high and how far! So I put all the ducks in a row quickly. When the owner asked around for the 'temp pilot' he got the 'cheap referral'.

This is what was explained to me by the owner. So yeah, it was not an offer. I already been working for just over 3 weeks on the job.

 

[Roger Roger]

I disagree with that, I know a few people that have very good gig's flying citations. I'd say anyone that has a job flying a lear with tip tanks probably has a crappy job.

91 jobs are either the best in the world, or the worst in the world. 135 jobs generally lean towards the crappy end of the spectrum, but there are always exceptions.

Theres a few medevac gigs up here flying tip tank Lears that are pretty cush.

 

[SrFnFly227]

If you knew the whole job description the $55k range on the position is reasonable. I won't put any more detail than I listed though since it's as far into it as I am comfortable describing. It is a very tough work environment where you need 'thick skin' but any professional should be fine with that in my opinion as it makes the experience interesting and at times humorous.

My times are just about 2600/ 400 with 50 logged turbine as SIC (90 total turbine for insurance purposes).

I hope I didn't come off wrong in my original post. I wasn't trying to be rude, or trying to say that you aren't worth $55k. I was simply pointing out that I think it is high to sit right seat in a single pilot jet. Again, I only make $50k to sit left seat in that same plane. That said, I have worked a total of 37 days this year so I am certainly not complaining about my job.

Now it sounds as if your job was to sit right seat, but have a lot more responsibility than an SIC usually would in a Mustang. For that you are probably worth more than the $30-35k I had mentioned earlier. I will repeat what others have said in that it really does suck that the owner did this to you. That is just disgusting since you were already working for him and were in the process of relocating for him. I don't think that he represents a majority of Part 91 gigs though. I fill in occasionally on two other owner's planes and while one is not all that considerate, he still treats us well overall (good hotels, per diem at the Government rate, rental car, etc.). The second owner is awesome. My boss is also very considerate and I consider myself lucky to have my job.

What I'm trying to say is to keep your chin up. You have a great attitude about all of this and you have plenty of experience. Something will come up and you will be offered what you deserve with your experience. I may actually have a spot opening up with me and will gladly give you the info once I know more.

Good luck and stick with it. Things will work out.

Oh. And no . If the pilot is sinlge pilot rated an SIC is not required and there are only certain conditions under which the SIC can log time.

In the ladder case I was required as the pilot was not single pilto rated. He was required to have an SIC at all time. The SIC could be almost anyone. I can only pray the new guy has enough experience to keep the PIC safe.

So I didn't word my original question right. I understand that with the Single Pilot type, a right seat pilot is not required. My question was weather or not an SIC type rating was required to fly in the right seat with a pilot who is not single pilot rated? I didn't think so, but am curious.

 

[derg]

I think it's just the basic nature of pilots to "underbid" just for the opportunity.

I'll bet you a dollar, he'll be bitching about the contract and the pay in a hot minute.

 

[TexasFlyer]

So I didn't word my original question right. I understand that with the Single Pilot type, a right seat pilot is not required. My question was weather or not an SIC type rating was required to fly in the right seat with a pilot who is not single pilot rated? I didn't think so, but am curious.

From my understanding the SIC type is not required to fly with him.

And quite frankly, the SIC type is meaningless. All I did to get mine was talk with a type rated ATP about the systems, do 3 take-offs and landings as the sole manipulator in the Mustang, and then review engine out procedures. Total of a couple hours ground followed by a short 45 minute flight and the FSDO gave me an SIC upon presenting my logbook to them. So pretty mnuch anyone can be an SIC in anything with very limited knowledge.

 

[Patrick]

I'd chalk it up to bad luck myself. Keep your sense of humor.

It seems to me at first glance that the design and marketing of that airplane screams for "cheapskates" to buy them and never commit fully to the financial obligation required to run a safe, professional corporate flight operation. If he wants to play pilot and fly himself around to his meetings, get the single pilot type. If he can't / doesn't want to, realize there's a reason two pilots are needed and build that into the cost of operation. Which, I suppose he did but then found a guy that would do it for half. Welcome to aviation.

If he can't afford that, buy a Cirrus (they're not THAT much slower, are they?).

So I'd say it's bad luck with a bit of everything else mixed in. I don't have any direct experience with Part 91 turbine, but I don't think your story is that uncommon.

There's a considerable amount of truth to this statement.

I've often wondered how there seems to be so many truly unintelligent people who own expensive aircraft (in real world terms, not plane terms- $1 mil to me is still a lot of money, as I'm sure it is to most of us), and I just have to wonder how these idiots ever made enough money to afford the thing (obviously I'm not counting the idiots who just inherited).

While I'm not really attracted to the airlines for lack of long term career viability (at least the domestic ones), I'm beginning to lose faith in the "other" side of this industry as well.

 

[MoMatt]

From my understanding the SIC type is not required to fly with him.

And quite frankly, the SIC type is meaningless. All I did to get mine was talk with a type rated ATP about the systems, do 3 take-offs and landings as the sole manipulator in the Mustang, and then review engine out procedures. Total of a couple hours ground followed by a short 45 minute flight and the FSDO gave me an SIC upon presenting my logbook to them. So pretty mnuch anyone can be an SIC in anything with very limited knowledge.

Correct, all that is required to sit right seat is to meet the requirements of 61.55.

The FAA will issue (at the request of pilots / flight departments) "SIC Type Ratings" which is nothing more than verification of meeting requirements of 61.55.

This allows crews to fly to other countries and be in compliance with ICAO standards, which require the SIC to have an "SIC Type Rating."

 

[Patrick]

Correct, all that is required to sit right seat is to meet the requirements of 61.55.

The FAA will issue (at the request of pilots / flight departments) "SIC Type Ratings" which is nothing more than verification of meeting requirements of 61.55.

This allows crews to fly to other countries and be in compliance with ICAO standards, which require the SIC to have an "SIC Type Rating."

We do the same thing for our SIC's where I work, and let's be honest, it's a joke to get an "SIC Type" onto your Cert.

 

[sr22driver]

So I just read your post to my CP and three or four guys in the pilot lounge at JQF. We are all in agreement that you got hosed and crippling sexual disease should befall the kid who undercut you.
There has been heated discussion about placing an ad in the local paper calling the guy out and in any aviation publication you can manage to get an ad placed with the guys name and the tail number of the airplane.
I would put the tail number in my flight aware alerts and call every FBO at any airport he flys to and let the lineguys know what kind of DBag was headed their way.
Kind of a scorched earth way to approach it, but what's the worse thing that can happen?

 

[jtrain609]

We do the same thing for our SIC's where I work, and let's be honest, it's a joke to get an "SIC Type" onto your Cert.

Is this why people think that the SIC type is worthless?

It took 8 weeks of training where a handful of people failed out and a checkride that mirrored a PIC ride except for one or two items to get my SIC type.

 

[Patrick]

Is this why people think that the SIC type is worthless?

It took 8 weeks of training where a handful of people failed out and a checkride that mirrored a PIC ride except for one or two items to get my SIC type.

MAJOR difference. I was referring to doing it the 91/ frequent 135 way, not the 121 way. I'm fully aware that a 121 (or 91k or better pax 135) SIC type is the real deal and practically the same as a PIC type, but when you do it the "ATP guy gave me some instruction and a few bounces and the FSDO put it on my cert" way, I'm less than impressed.

 

[rframe]

Is this why people think that the SIC type is worthless?

It took 8 weeks of training where a handful of people failed out and a checkride that mirrored a PIC ride except for one or two items to get my SIC type.

Why wouldn't they just have you do a PIC type then? Serious question.

 

[Patrick]

Why wouldn't they just have you do a PIC type then? Serious question.

They don't want to make you more valuable to competing carriers. Simple as that.

 

[🦈💜]

I've often wondered how there seems to be so many truly unintelligent people who own expensive aircraft (in real world terms, not plane terms- $1 mil to me is still a lot of money, as I'm sure it is to most of us), and I just have to wonder how these idiots ever made enough money to afford the thing (obviously I'm not counting the idiots who just inherited).

People give far too much credit to the wealthy--only a very small percentage of people with -real- money actually -earned- it. Most people who have -real- money (And I'm not talking about people with a million to their name -- I'm talking about the people who can afford to buy oh, say, a Mustang (of either color ) were either lucky, had rich parents, lied and cheated, or some combination thereof. A small percentage of those people started small and worked hard to make their money. A slightly larger percentage were intelligent enough to start small and make intelligent choices in life.

About zero of them came to any of their businesses with the "If so and so says jump, I say how high" attitude. There's nothing wrong with that attitude when you're doing unskilled labor, but professionals should generally earn more respect (And carry themselves with more self-respect).
(And professionals in any capacity should earn more than $30k, regardless of how 'young' they are)

Anyway, I guess I'm rambling a bit here. I'm not trying to imply that the wealthy don't deserve their money -- far from it -- but I have found that people who claim to have 'earned' their fortunes either inherited, had parents that put them through an MBA program (cough, stanford, cough) designed to ease them into the Executive Class (... and then inherited), or they simply got lucky. (Right place, right time; good-but-unskilled choice; high-yield industry in a high-yield period, etc)

That doesn't really deserve the deference that people seem to grant. They're just people, and should be judged on their merits, not their net worth... just like everyone else.

~Fox

 

[Patrick]

People give far too much credit to the wealthy--only a very small percentage of people with -real- money actually -earned- it. Most people who have -real- money (And I'm not talking about people with a million to their name -- I'm talking about the people who can afford to buy oh, say, a Mustang (of either color ) were either lucky, had rich parents, lied and cheated, or some combination thereof. A small percentage of those people started small and worked hard to make their money. A slightly larger percentage were intelligent enough to start small and make intelligent choices in life.

About zero of them came to any of their businesses with the "If so and so says jump, I say how high" attitude. There's nothing wrong with that attitude when you're doing unskilled labor, but professionals should generally earn more respect (And carry themselves with more self-respect).
(And professionals in any capacity should earn more than $30k, regardless of how 'young' they are)

Anyway, I guess I'm rambling a bit here. I'm not trying to imply that the wealthy don't deserve their money -- far from it -- but I have found that people who claim to have 'earned' their fortunes either inherited, had parents that put them through an MBA program (cough, stanford, cough) designed to ease them into the Executive Class (... and then inherited), or they simply got lucky. (Right place, right time; good-but-unskilled choice; high-yield industry in a high-yield period, etc)

That doesn't really deserve the deference that people seem to grant. They're just people, and should be judged on their merits, not their net worth... just like everyone else.

~Fox

Well said.

 

[jtrain609]

Why wouldn't they just have you do a PIC type then? Serious question.

Patrick hit it.

The company is expecting the FAA to require PIC types for everybody now, so as we go back through recurrent we're getting ATP rides and PIC types.

 

[TexasFlyer]

So I just read your post to my CP and three or four guys in the pilot lounge at JQF. We are all in agreement that you got hosed and crippling sexual disease should befall the kid who undercut you.
There has been heated discussion about placing an ad in the local paper calling the guy out and in any aviation publication you can manage to get an ad placed with the guys name and the tail number of the airplane.
I would put the tail number in my flight aware alerts and call every FBO at any airport he flys to and let the lineguys know what kind of DBag was headed their way.
Kind of a scorched earth way to approach it, but what's the worse thing that can happen?

lol. I would certainly not do that to anyone. Plus his tail number is blocked from flight tracking. It's not worth the time or effort when I have two priority right now.

First since that was a W-2 I called unemployment to see if once I get my last check I can begin to get some help. He is paying me through the end of the month since he felt that was the right thing to do since he would expect the same notice from me if I left him suddenly.

Second I will be very selective and begin to look for something else that pays reasonable and will treat me as good as I treat them. After all, good people do not remain unemployed for long. I already have a day contract lined up for Thursday with a great client of mine that loves me and a couple others for next week as well. So by the time his paychecks run dry hopefully I have enough contract work to where I don't ultimately need any unemployment money.

The dream is still there. It just sucks having to chase it so hard!