Careful thought and in need of advice from experts

[toddinnaples]

Hi all. In an effort to be brief I will just tell everyone where I am and read the comments/advice that is given. My wife is mad at me, because I discovered this forum today and have been glued to the PC all day....

1. I am 34 will be 35 in Oct. Married with 3 wonderful kids
2. Been sucessful in business, but want to become a professional Pilot
3. Have a 4 year college degree (BS in Computer Science)
4. Have around $400,000 total savings and thinking about quiting everything, moving my family back home to Atlanta. Currently we live in Florida and miss our families in Atlanta. I have been unhappy in my career for sometime now and my wife is a hardworking stay at home mom.
5. Right after college 13 years ago I looked at and visted what was then Comair Aviation Academy, but did not have the $$ to go...Went flying with a friend who got his PPL a couple of years ago and loved it...have thought about going to an academy ever since.
6. Really explored DCA in sanford florida and Flight Saftey in vero beach.... until I saw ATP in Atlanta. Is 60 days for PPL and 90 DAYS in the ACCP program realistic????

along with an answer to Item 6 above....I would like to advice/comments on.....
A. Is it feasibile for someone 34 to pursue this and make a career out of flying?
B. My family and I could live off my savings (and any meager income I could make as a CFI and flying regionally) for a few years to buy the time necessary to get to the Majors or land a cushy corporate gig....What is the real "truth" in time...How long realistically will it take me to build the hours necessary to get to the Majors or Corporate (Cargo or People)
C. How about pilots for fractionals (NetJets) what are the salaries for pilots who fly for compaines like that? Are they any better than the regionals?
D. You hear the Bad financial news from the Airline industry daily?? Where is the industry heading....I decided 13 years ago not to pursue a career as a pilot mainly due to some bad advice (needed to come from the military and could not afford the training) and I do not want to make the same mistake again....

Thanks for the forum and all the post...I cannot read them fast enough. Best Site on the net! Todd

 

[JEP]

1st...welcome
2nd...just search through the many posts ni this forum (changing careers) and you will see the answers.
3rd...you seem to have the dough to make the transition much easier than it would be for most.
4th..read some of ready2fly's posts. I believe he is 39 and just left his paralegal career and is doing the cfi gig.


welcome again.

 

[gtpilot]

[ QUOTE ]
thinking about quiting everything, moving my family back home to Atlanta. Currently we live in Florida and miss our families in Atlanta. I have been unhappy in my career for sometime now and my wife is a hardworking stay at home mom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just moved back to Georgia from Florida myself - it is nice to be back with family. I left a high paying engineering job for the whole CFI thing and I am now enjoying my work. I'm happier, and therefore my wife's happier.

The only major problem we have run into so far has been health insurance. Trying to get independent health insurance for a family is difficult (we finally resorted to lying after getting several denials).

Good luck with your decision - the answer to most of your questions will be a matter of opinion in many respects. Welcome to the forum!

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

[ QUOTE ]
A. Is it feasibile for someone 34 to pursue this and make a career out of flying?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on what you wanted to do, yessir. It's totally possible to get on with a regional, a charter op, instructing, and MAYBE a major some day.

[ QUOTE ]
B. My family and I could live off my savings (and any meager income I could make as a CFI and flying regionally) for a few years to buy the time necessary to get to the Majors or land a cushy corporate gig....What is the real "truth" in time...How long realistically will it take me to build the hours necessary to get to the Majors or Corporate (Cargo or People)

[/ QUOTE ]

Realistically, don't even think about the majors right now. It's honestly pointless since the industry is going through such a flux right now. If you do the ATP thing (which is feasible, lots of people here did it and are now with ExpressJet or other regionals), you're probably looking at two years from start to cargo/corporate job. $400K is a descent chunk if you know how to spend it.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Right after college 13 years ago I looked at and visted what was then Comair Aviation Academy, but did not have the $$ to go...Went flying with a friend who got his PPL a couple of years ago and loved it...have thought about going to an academy ever since.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal advice, ATP or somewhere else is better. DCA has a tendecy to leave out some things in their marketting. I know a lot of people that have been seriously dissatisfied with the service there. On the flip side, I know a few that were happy. The training is good, but the post-training stress and the marketting need some work. Check out the DCA forum on here for more details.

[ QUOTE ]
C. How about pilots for fractionals (NetJets) what are the salaries for pilots who fly for compaines like that? Are they any better than the regionals?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fractionals have higher miniumum hiring reqs than regionals, but for the most part pay is bettter.

[ QUOTE ]
Where is the industry heading...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I could tell you that, I could pay off my student loans.

[ QUOTE ]
I decided 13 years ago not to pursue a career as a pilot mainly due to some bad advice (needed to come from the military and could not afford the training) and I do not want to make the same mistake again....

[/ QUOTE ]

Join the club. I wanted to fly since I was 3, but in HS someone told me (probably a recruiter) that the only way to get on with an airline was through the military, and that wasn't gonna happen since I didn't have 20/20 vision. Fast forward almost a decade, and I accidentally find myself living in the land of flight schools (Orlando, FL). Come to find out, I was seriously misinformed.

Best advice is to keep digging, talk it over with your wife and kids (they're going to be involved in the change just as much as you are), and see what you as a family decide. It's a tough road, and I'm VERY lucky that I have a wife that supports me as much as she does. Don't knee jerk at the first flight school, and don't be swayed by fancy advertising. Look at several schools and decide which is the best for you. Finally, keep asking questions here. When I stumbled on this site a couple of years ago (damn, has it been THAT long?) I knew next to nothing. Doug's tools and the users here have been immensely helpful and supportive. They're more or less a second family to me now.

 

[av8trxx]

Yes, I agree it's best to really do your research on this one. This forum is a great place to start. You need to be as informed as you can about what you are getting into.

I was a mid-life career changer myself and knew full well what I was getting into. I have been in this industry for half my life, so I know nothing else, therefore nothings been surprising to me. However, for some who have always 'dreamed' of being a pilot, the reality is often not what they dream it is having no experience in aviation. Do not underestimate the sacrifices that you will have to make financially or otherwise. I have three friends who at ages 46, 30 & 35 all made the change to regional F/O new hires. One was extremely well off after the sale of a personal business, the others gave up their lifes saving to complete their training. (One was a former F/A of six years who became a pilot to boot). They are all getting out of (or have already quit) the regionals and are quitting aviation. Money was the main issue, but one just couldn't deal with the QOL issues. They all love to fly, but making a career out of it, esp one that required so much sacrifice and paid so little it took the fun out of it for them.

Since your wife is a stay at home mom of three, this will be a major, major change. Keep reading these forums, and really really get every angle covered. Perhaps your wife might enjoy checking out Kristies forum for the families. Even though you have a good nest egg now, that may be substantially reduced depending on how much you spend for your training along with living expenses while you are making $20K/yr. Don't walk, run to a financial planner now to help you budget for what you'll need if you forge ahead with flying. Good luck

 

[Bryan]

Todd, do you have any ratings now or taking lessons? If not you might as well get at least your private at the local FBO before you lose your good income. Maybe continue through multi-comm and CFI's. You don't have to go the academy route to get a regional job. Couple years ago I looked at the big schools and decided to stick with my current engineering job, and train in my spare time. I'll get my multi-comm this spring/summer and hopefully CFIs in the fall/winter. After that, we'll see what happens. I'm 30, married, 1 kid, 1 on the way and I certianly don't have $400k in the bank. Nice work!
Good luck!

 

[Fearless]

Hi Todd,

Life's too short to spend it working at a job you don't like. Having said that, you need to think pretty carefully about changing careers. You're considering several huge decisions here that are best handled a few small steps at at time.

First, have you actually taken any flying lessons? If not, I'd suggest you start NOW. Find a good local flight school (there are several excellent ones in the Naples area) and get going. Get your Private. Then you'll be in a better position to decide if you really want to fly for a living. Although it's an attractive idea to haul yourself (and your money) off to a big flight academy, you should realize that most of these big schools aren't significantly better than a good local operation - they just have a bigger advertising budget.

Since your family wants to move back to Atlanta, I'd also be working on this problem. Even though you say you have $400,000 saved up, I'd be reluctant to take an extended break from work (just in case the flying job doesn't work out). Find a job in the Atlanta area. Work part-time or as a consultant if you want to devote more time to flight training. But keep you job skills current.

I was 33 when I left the computer industry to fly full-time. I am currently employed by a regional airline. Although I enjoy my job, it's a financially UNREWARDING career with little job security. At my age (now 47), it's unlikely that I'll ever make it to the ranks of a major airline. According to my last tax return, I made just over $29,000 last year - my 14-th year as a professional pilot. It should also be noted that my current employer doesn't have a pension plan - just a 401(k).

Moral of the story: Don't do it for the money. Another thing to consider is the time away from your family. Being away from home for three or four days at a time can be hard on your family, especially if you have small children. For many of my coworkers, this is actually more of an issue than the money.

As for the flying, go for it! I expect you'd be an excellent student, and you're just about the perfect age as far as learning the necessary skills and knowledge (and older students often have a significant advantage in the "judgement" aspects of flying). Flying is something you can always use and enjoy, whether you want to make it a career or not.

Good luck, and keep us updated,
E. Roberts, CFI

 

[toddinnaples]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

E. Roberts,

Thank you for your insightful advice and opinions....I have a couple questions for you. Have you ever attempted (applied) to get to any of the majors? or Major Cargo, or fractionals? Have you interviewed? I feel I am very agressive and have a great amount of desire and could make it to the big boys( Majors, corporate, etc...) but I also understand that I am somewhat ignorant to the career and the paths and stumbling blocks one has to overcome to get there...

Thanks, Todd

 

[Mr_Creepy]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

I think you can make it a given that ALL regional pilots have applied to every major airline, cargo carrier, etc.

You have no idea how competitive that environment is until you experience it firsthand.

Just take jetBlue for example. When they have a slot for 20 pilots they interview 200. They take the 20 best. The other 180 go back in to the pile, that includes the 2000 they failed to call, even though they meet the stringent qualifications.

 

[Bryan]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

It sounds like you made a successful career for yourself by a lot of hard work and going the "extra mile". You may be disappointed at a regional or major for that matter. Once you are hired you are a number, the last number. You move up when people above you leave, not because you are devoted or aggressive. If you go the extra mile flying, you just wasted some jet A.

Maybe in a corporate environment it would work better.?

 

[Fearless]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

Hi Todd,

Back in "Pre-9/11" days (Spring 2000) I was invited to interview with United Airlines. Was I a competitive applicant? I'd like to think so - at the time, I was a pretty decent pilot with around 2500 hours of multiengine time. Cynics would say that I only got the invitation to interview because I was a pretty good FEMALE pilot with 2500 hours of multiengine time. That's a topic for another thread (not this one!).

I eventually decided NOT to interview - I took another job with a top-notch regional instead. I'd really like to get on with one of the major cargo operators (i.e., FedEx or UPS). Last I heard, FedEx had something like 10,000 applications on file, all from very qualified applicants. I'm not going to stop trying, but I really don't have enought PIC turbine (pilot-in-command time, turbine-powered airplanes). Most of the majors require a bare minimum of 1000 hours. Competitive minimums are generally higher, though some people do get hired with the minimum times.

Although it's always good to be pro-active when it comes to your career, there's times where quality of life issues may become more important than rapid career advancement. In case you missed it, the airlines aren't doing so well right now. Fortunately, no one at my company has been laid off, but upgrades are slow - VERY slow. You might as well relax and enjoy the drive. (Like that candy bar commercial - "Not going anywhere for a while? Grab a Snickers!).

On the other hand, it's an EXCELLENT time to be taking flying lessons. In the late-90's (when airline hiring was booming), many flight schools were overcrowded and instructor turnover was high. This shouldn't be a problem now - in fact, there's a lot of good, experienced instructors out there that would be happy to train you on YOUR schedule.

Start small and think long-term...

Good luck - keep us updated.
E. Roberts, CFI

 

[A300Capt]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

[ QUOTE ]
I was 33 when I left the computer industry to fly full-time. I am currently employed by a regional airline. Although I enjoy my job, it's a financially UNREWARDING career with little job security. At my age (now 47), it's unlikely that I'll ever make it to the ranks of a major airline. According to my last tax return, I made just over $29,000 last year - my 14-th year as a professional pilot. It should also be noted that my current employer doesn't have a pension plan - just a 401(k).

Moral of the story: Don't do it for the money. Another thing to consider is the time away from your family. Being away from home for three or four days at a time can be hard on your family, especially if you have small children. For many of my coworkers, this is actually more of an issue than the money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to Fearless. Her story is more the norm than the exception and her advice is solid. Aviation is a very cyclical profession when it comes to hiring and furloughs. Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring and I'd walk very fast away from anyone who claims to know otherwise. You roll the dice and take your chances. A lot of these "quickie" fast track schools with flashy brochures prey on the hopes and dreams of the uniformed.

Most of the majors are on shaky financial ground and the profitable cargo airlines are swamped with well qualified applicants jumping ship from the pax carriers. This is on top of the normal applicants from the military, corporate or young Regional pilots.

UPS wants 1000 PIC turbine. I've heard recently of applicants being shown the door after finding out they didn't have that requirement but were otherwise qualified. One HR person was asked why they require that and his answer is because they can get it.

Not sure, knowing what I know now, that I'd be willing to sacrifice my wife and kid's future on a future airline career. Just my opinion.

 

[toddinnaples]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

Hi. Thanks again for the responses...for those of us who are a little ignorant...translate 1000 PIC Turbine time...Does that mean that you have to have 1000 hours flying as captain? what does that normally translate into Total Time....like someone who has 5000 TT hours is likely to have 1000 PIC hours???

Thanks, Todd

 

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

[ QUOTE ]
Hi. Thanks again for the responses...for those of us who are a little ignorant...translate 1000 PIC Turbine time...Does that mean that you have to have 1000 hours flying as captain? what does that normally translate into Total Time....like someone who has 5000 TT hours is likely to have 1000 PIC hours???

Thanks, Todd

[/ QUOTE ]In a nutshell, it means that you have 1000 hours in a turbine a/c (jet or turboprop) in which you were either the Captain of a 2-3 pilot a/c or the sole pilot of a 1 pilot a/c. Most logical way to get it is to work at a regional airline for long enough to upgrade to Captain and fly about another 1-2 years (upgrade times vary). There are not a lot of single pilot turbine a/c out there, and I think for insurance reasons you have to have a lot of hours to get those jobs.

 

[pilotots]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

Todd –
It sounds like you have many good reasons to change careers and go into aviation; you have money, age and ambition on your side. (Some people would say 34 is old to be starting out but at 34 you have the life experiences it takes to buckle down and attempt something like what you’re talking about.)

You also have some issues to consider; family, again your age and again the money issue. While your family is happy to move to Atlanta for your training will the be willing (happy) to move to NY, NJ, CA or any other state when your flying job “relocates” you? Also pilot schedules can be hard with a family, especially if you are accustomed to being home at nights. In theory this year I could and might be away from home for 200 days and nights – that’s a lot of time away. Your age – 34 isn’t too old for the majors but it might take you 5 to 15 years to get the time and experience they require. I went from 0 time to CFI with 350 hours in one year – you could do it faster but I wouldn’t have wanted to (I’m not sure I could have.) After 1 and a half years of flight instructing I’m now working for a fractional as an FO. I’m guessing it will be 5 to 8 years before I have 5000 hours total time. At that point I’ll have over 1000 PIC. So yes by the age of 44 to 50 you might be able to get into the resume stack at the majors. Now we’re back to the money and lifestyle issues. This is what gets most people in trouble. For 10 years you will be making 15K to 30K, living away from home and most likely changing jobs every 2 years. That takes its toll on you, your family and the aviation “dream”. As a pilot just starting out I realized money isn’t everything but with out money everything turns into nothing really fast.

I think the goals you spoke of in your first post are reachable but at a large cost both financially and in your and your family’s quality of life, you can do it but just know what you’re getting into.

I have two other possibilities that I would personally do if I were you.
1) Keep a part time computer job, go to an fbo and get your CFI rating and then have two part time jobs, the computer one to pay the bills and the CFI one to have some fun with.
2) Keep your fulltime computer job, go to an fbo and get your ratings, take some of that hard earned money and buy an airplane to fly yourself and your family around.

These are just my ideas – I also agree with everything said in the pervious posts.

 

[Fearless]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

That's pretty much it - "1000 PIC turbine" means 1000 hours pilot-in-command (as Captain) in turbine-powered aircraft (includes jet aircraft and turboprops). My current stats are something like 11000 total tiime, 5800 multiengine, and 3400 turbine (all as second-in-command). Although I have lots of PIC time, none of it is in turbine-powered airplanes.

Some major airlines also have specific requirements, i.e., they want a certain amount of experience in "large" or "heavy" airplanes, may or may not accept single-engine turbine time, and have relatively strict definitions of what constitutes being "pilot-in-command" (the FAA's definition is broad enough to sometimes allow two or more people to log PIC time simultaneously).

Although there's some hiring going on at the regional level, most of the major airlines either have people out on furlough or are hiring just enough pilots to cover retirements. Want to know who is hiring? Look around and ask yourself "Who's making money?". Right now, this includes Southwest, Jet Blue, and FedEx.

I don't know too much about the corporate or fractional operators. The fractionals have experienced relatively strong growth in the last five years. Again, the major problem here is to get enough turbine time (or enough time in type) to be competitive. Traditionally, corporate aviation has been hard to break into (very much a "who you know" type job).

E. Roberts

 

[toddinnaples]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

Thanks to everyone for their advice and opinions. Thanks to Doug for creating this forum where people can share their experiences and knowledge.

Based on everything that I have learned in this forum and others and all the consideration that I have given my decision....I do not think I am going to make the jump. I think flying for a hobby might be some good advice one gave me. If I was 22 again and no responsibilities other than myself...I would "Jump in".....but....need to face reality and do not think I could afford to make 25K for the next 10 years!

Good luck to those who are making the change following their dreams. I will remain a passenger!

Todd

 

[Indigo]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

You can always start out flying as a hobby, get more ratings, become a CFI and then see what the state of the industry and your opinion of it is at that time. 34 is really not all that old.

 

[Fearless]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

Hi Todd,

Why don't you check out some of the local flight schools this weekend? In addition to Naples Municipal Airport, you should also visit Page Field up in Ft. Myers. Talk to some of the local pilots and flight instructors. Perhaps someone on this board could recommend an instructor.

E. Roberts, CFI

 

[Cheechako]

Re: Careful thought and in need of advice from exp

If you haven't already, check out www.airlinepilotpay.com. You will find accurate pay rates for just about any airline and fractional operator out there! It will give you a good idea on how much money you'll be making once you get there...