Attitudes

[MikeOH58]

As for the whole PFT deal....there are countless pages here about that. I choose not to judge those who go down that path...like I said earlier, I've though about it. Everybody has to choose their own path for flight training as there is no "one size fits all". I just think people should think about that before they have 10 kittens because someone says they are thinking about going to GTA or Eaglejet.

CFIs....I give you guys and girls ALL the credit in the world for what you do out there. I just don't think I have the paintence to do it. Everybody out there knows of people who are CFIs that should'nt be....I don't want to be that guy, but by some peoples logic that makes me a bad person....in my mind I'm saving myself and any future students any grief.

Are you insane? "More power to the person" that pays for a job? There is no "one size fits all", but there is a genre of "flight training" that doesn't fit anything, and that is PFT. If im ever on an hiring board, and someone tells me they paid for a job, I dont care how great the rest of your resume is...You are going to the bottom of the pile at best.

I don't mean to sound high and mighty to everyone else because i'm just starting my professional career, but WTFAU to pay your way into a job when i've paid my through part 61 com mins, flew traffic watch, flight instructed, flew part 135, just to find out yesterday that someone has deemed me worthy to send me to king air school. I have no respect for a poser like you.

In regards to your second comment...I've said it once, i've said it a million times. To say "I don't have the patience, or I know I wont be a good instructor", is the reply from someone that isn't willing to apply themselves...You dont know unless you try.

You don't have to flight instruct. But you can't make those comments until you have at least made an attempt to commit yourself.

Big Thumbs Down.
:tmyk:

 

[Kristie]

keep it civil...there's no reason for name calling or circumventing our profanity censor

i'm only going to say it once.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Well, "dude", it looks like either you've got an attitude problem, or everyone else does.

 

[Baronman]

CFIs....I give you guys and girls ALL the credit in the world for what you do out there. I just don't think I have the paintence to do it. Everybody out there knows of people who are CFIs that should'nt be....I don't want to be that guy, but by some peoples logic that makes me a bad person....in my mind I'm saving myself and any future students any grief.

You may want to rethink a career your airline career if the thought of CFI'ing puts a sour taste in your mouth. Almost all the skills you regularly use as a CFI when teaching are applicable in the cockpit of an airliner. Even as a captain you'll be mentoring newer FOs on line whether you like it or not, situational awareness, sharing of information, organizational skills, CRM, and being the PIC are all on the CFI's plate.

I'm not saying you have to be a CFI to get where you want in this career. But just realize that instructors are teaching people the basics of aeronautics and how to fly. If someone really wants to be an airline pilot, but the thought of teaching someone how to fly seems unpleasant, it's a little puzzling. And honestly it seems to me that people just want to jump to the more "glamorous" part of being an airline pilot and skip the challenging part of their development as a pilot as an instructor under the excuse that they wouldn't like being an instructor.

 

[DPApilot]

Well, "dude", it looks like either you've got an attitude problem, or everyone else does.

We all might just be wrong!

 

[diesel9driver]

Ok,

A lot of you guys need to relax about this "you have to be a CFI" thing. I personally did not flight instruct, I flew freight at night instead. You have other options. I do agree that PFT is a bogus way to build your time and get your first job. The few PFT guys that I have flown with (and this is my personal experience) were not very good pilots. You don't have to be a CFI to become an airline pilot, although it is a good way to gain experience and build time.

Back to the issue of GJ, it'd be like the bus company you work for saying we're going to buy some bigger buses, get rid of some of the smaller ones you're driving, lay you off and hire some new guys that'll drive the bigger one for less. Maybe that will help you understand why a lot of us feel so strongly about GJ. We can judge the GJ pilots because we have the facts. Do they have to put food on their families table? Yes. But so does the TSA FO who got layed off because their company decided to start an alter ego/non-union airline. That's why I denied them the jumpseat at my previous job and why I will continue to educate the captains I fly with at my new one.

Hope this helps.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Ok,

A lot of you guys need to relax about this "you have to be a CFI" thing. I personally did not flight instruct, I flew freight at night instead.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you "have to be a CFI". However, in the hiring climate right now, I don't see any wet-commercial guys getting a job flying freight. Maybe you can squeeze your way through the door at someplace like ACC at 500TT or so, but the competition will be fierce. In the absence of that, fly jumpers, fly banners, fly powerline, or man up and get the CFI. I did CFI, and while it's nothing I'd want to do long-term, it made me a better pilot, no question about it.

As I read it, it no one is irritated by the idea that someone would prefer not to CFI. It's the feeling that they're somehow owed a "better job" because they're "not cut out for it". Believe me, no one is "cut out" for putting their ticket on the line for some guy they have no real way of knowing with any certainty won't crash the airplane (and their career). Some, however, find that they can enjoy it and learn from it.

You didn't have to CFI. Good for you. I liked it (mostly), but a lot of guys I knew spent the entire time marking the calender. The point is they did it because they wanted to move on, and they did it as professionally as their various abilities and predispositions would allow. They didn't spend their time whining about how it wasn't fair that they had to do what umpteen "dudes" before them had to do to get to the next rung.

From my non-121 point of view, a huge part of getting ahead is your "attitude", which is why I found the title of the post so hilarious. If you've the attitude that everyone is out to get you and you're being unfairly held back from the left seat of the space shuttle, you're going to be disliked on sight. If you go in with the attitude that flying an airplane is a pretty cool way to make money and the reason you make money is because someone wants themselves or their stuff moved from one place to another, they're called a "customer", and you get to Live The Dream at their expense, you'll do a lot better. Students are customers too.

PS. Telling guys who are airline pilots how airline pilots should act when you're not one is not the best way to make friends. I'm not an airline pilot, and I make a concerted effort not to tell those dudes how to run their shop (not claiming I always succeed).

 

[diesel9driver]

You didn't have to CFI. Good for you.

Try to be a little more condescending next time, I had a hard time picking up on that. Look man, nothing against you personally but the impression I got from reading a lot of these boards and posts is the overall opinion here is that you have to "pay your dues" by being a CFI. I personally know of people hired into the right seat of a regional jet with less than 10 hrs of multi and a "wet commercial" without having to instruct, but that was last year. Obviously things have changed quite a bit since then in our economy and the job market is going to reflect that. It's all about timing in this industry. Sometimes you are on the good side of it, other times not.

I'm giving advice from a different perspective than you and our opinions differ, that's fine. I was just letting the guy know that there are other options out there if you look hard enough.

At the regional level, when they were hiring a lot of low time guys (in the last couple of years), a lot of us CA's felt like CFIs when we had to teach basic instrument 101 to these inexperienced new hires. They would blow right through 10k doing 320kts without batting an eye. Mostly this was due to not having flown anything near as fast as the jets we were operating, but a lot of it was due to their inexperience. There was also a lack of appreciation for their position. So many times in the last couple of years I would hear FO's talking about upgrade times and if it didn't look like they'd upgrade in under a year they'd go someplace else and upgrade faster. That's a bad attitude to have. Pretty much all of those guys that I heard say things like that are still FOs, and some got furloughed. Chasing the quick upgrade doesn't seem to work out too often. When you make it to the next level, appreciate it for what it is.

We agree on the attitude issue, having a positive attitude makes all the difference. During my last interview (at a major) there were five of us potential candidates sitting in the lobby talking before things got started. One guy was pretty cocky, his tie was loose, he didn't sit up straight, etc. He also was figuring out who was born when so he could say he'd be senior to all of us in class since he was the oldest there. His attitude was wrong from the start and the rest of us were saying "let's get through this interview first before we start assigning seniority". You can guess the outcome, he didn't get hired.

Attitude does make a huge difference, and even after being in the industry for the better part of ten years I still think of the passengers I fly as valued customers and greet them every chance I get. Keep a good attitude, work hard and you will go far in this business.

Keep that glass half full.

 

[Boris Badenov]

It honestly wasn't my intention to condescend, but I'm known to do it anyway. To be clear, I don't think any less of a pilot because they weren't a CFI, I just think the days of that being a realistic possibility for most 300 hour wonders are over (for the time being).

Now if you'd asked me whether I think any less of a pilot for not having flown freight...

 

[flyinguitar]

I'm just gonna come right out and say it: out of all the people I've met who wanted to skip CFIing and go straight to "real" flying (and of those who have been successful at doing that), not a single one of them:

1) impressed me that they really wanted anything other than a shortcut, or
2) is better off, either in a piloting, professional, or personal sense, than they would be if they had CFIed.

In the meantime, no one can get anything other than laughable pay for non-135 single engine work because there are wet Commercial/Instruments that will do it for practically nothing.

Also, a lot of people who could be advancing their career (as a CFI) are just sitting around because, even though they're willing to practically fly for free, there's just not enough non-CFI work to make it a viable time-building route for more than a handful of people. It's NOT in your best interest to sit around for months or years right after passing your commercial checkride, at least not if you want to move your career forward.

 

[Kristie]

You may want to rethink a career your airline career if the thought of CFI'ing puts a sour taste in your mouth. Almost all the skills you regularly use as a CFI when teaching are applicable in the cockpit of an airliner. Even as a captain you'll be mentoring newer FOs on line whether you like it or not, situational awareness, sharing of information, organizational skills, CRM, and being the PIC are all on the CFI's plate.

I'm not saying you have to be a CFI to get where you want in this career. But just realize that instructors are teaching people the basics of aeronautics and how to fly. If someone really wants to be an airline pilot, but the thought of teaching someone how to fly seems unpleasant, it's a little puzzling. And honestly it seems to me that people just want to jump to the more "glamorous" part of being an airline pilot and skip the challenging part of their development as a pilot as an instructor under the excuse that they wouldn't like being an instructor.

nicely said!!:rawk:

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Diesel9driver and I were roommates in college and did most of our training together. We also did our CFI initial together with the only exception he received a job offer to go fly for a 135 cargo operator before completing the course.

I can tell you diesel9driver didn't take any shortcuts and paid his dues.

 

[jtrain609]

Oh he's one of your buddies?

Nevermind, wouldn't want to have anything to do with freight trash.

 

[BobDDuck]

Wait... Do I know DieselNine? Is he an ex Dork/RJ guy?

 

[PaulR]

A320_Dude- Maybe you could tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. It may help folks understand your point of view. You seem to be defending more that asking or commenting, and thats ok, but if folks know where you are comming from they may be able to better answer/respond to your comments. I am sure everyone will give you a fair shot here. Some may be a little more skeptical than others due to your opinions sounding like they are backed more by marketing than your actual beliefs.

I agree, whats good for one is not always good for another. But whats best for all requires a little bit of sacrifice from everyone. I dont me dollars or contracts, just effort and careing are sometimes enouht to bridge a gap.

Good Luck,
Paul

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Wait... Do I know DieselNine? Is he an ex Dork/RJ guy?

You should...He introduced you to me.

 

[surreal1221]

I yi yi. . .it just keeps getting better.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Another newbie trying to tell a bunch of professional air line pilots how they should think? This is getting really tiresome.

 

[jtrain609]

Another newbie trying to tell a bunch of professional air line pilots how they should think? This is getting really tiresome.

It's always been that way around here, it's a forum for newbies. Get hip to the gig or, I dunno, do somethin' else?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's always been that way around here, it's a forum for newbies. Get hip to the gig or, I dunno, do somethin' else?

There's nothing wrong with a forum for newbies. What's wrong is said newbies thinking that they know more than the experienced guys. A "forum for newbies" is a place for newbies to come and get educated from the experienced guys, not a place for them to "school" the experienced guys. The OP should be asking questions, not telling Captains what to do with their jumpseats.