Attitudes

skydog said:
Those who fault the PFTers, the Gojetters, and whoever else for their career woes need to take a closer look in the mirror. You're career success, or lack thereof lies, in your own hands, not anybody elses. It is reprehensible that a so-called professional organization criticizes and blacklists anyone who achieved success through means other than what they sanction.
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:sarcasm: WOW, nice attitude :sarcasm:...that is precisely why this industry is going straight down the toilet and is 3/4 of the way there already. If this crap keeps up eventually Captains will be down to minimum wage and the FO's will be paying to the company to fly the plane. CAT already did that with their PFT program in the 727...Thankfully, they are no longer around.
 
Doug Taylor said:
...and if she's on the guppy and getting furloughed, but replaced with a lower paid E-190 pilot fresh out of flight school...
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Exactly.

If ya'll don't think that your actions today will effects others, and down the road yourself, then you're not thinking far enough ahead.

This whole, "Hey if you think something's right, then it IS right" feel good kinda stuff sounds great on the internet, but it's not the way the real world works. In the real world, there are consequences to your actions and while you might not like it, they will be enacted against you and they will hurt.

You can argue about whether they're right or wrong all you want, but it won't stop people from stonewalling you.

Such is life.
 
Hey, if anyone wants to pay for a job, you can pay me $30k and I'll give you my recall at Republic.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
:sarcasm: WOW, nice attitude :sarcasm:...that is precisely why this industry is going straight down the toilet and is 3/4 of the way there already. If this crap keeps up eventually Captains will be down to minimum wage and the FO's will be paying to the company to fly the plane. CAT already did that with their PFT program in the 727...Thankfully, they are no longer around.
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You have to remind yourself that Skydog does not have a vested interest in the well being of professional pilots.

He has a history of no longer making an effort to support the greater good for professional aviators.

Take it for what it's worth . . .
 
Doug Taylor said:
...and if she's on the guppy and getting furloughed, but replaced with a lower paid E-190 pilot fresh out of flight school...
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She was hired back in 1996, when being hired by United still meant something. She's in a Captain seat now, if she wants it. With the retirement of the 737 fleet she may get bumped back to FO, but that's the business she's chosen.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
:sarcasm: WOW, nice attitude :sarcasm:...that is precisely why this industry is going straight down the toilet and is 3/4 of the way there already. If this crap keeps up eventually Captains will be down to minimum wage and the FO's will be paying to the company to fly the plane. CAT already did that with their PFT program in the 727...Thankfully, they are no longer around.
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If pilots ever get down to minimum wage, it'll be their own fault, because they are the ones who continue to sign on for the job, regardless of what happens with wages. and working conditions. If they want to fly airplanes that badly, more power to them. It just means cheaper airfares for me.

If people really think that a few GoJet, JetBlue, SkyBus, or whoever pilots are responsibile for the downfall of the profession, when powerhouse pilot groups like United, Delta, and American haven't been able to withstand it, then I think they're deluding themselves.

The professionis going down the tubes because the industry isn't making money. You want to improve your profession? Then do what you need to do to help your industry make money.
 
skydog said:
She was hired back in 1996, when being hired by United still meant something. She's in a Captain seat now, if she wants it. With the retirement of the 737 fleet she may get bumped back to FO, but that's the business she's chosen.
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And how much do you want to bet she'll complain about being bumped back etc, etc.
 
skydog said:
You're career success, or lack thereof lies, in your own hands, not anybody elses. It is reprehensible that a so-called professional organization criticizes and blacklists anyone who achieved success through means other than what they sanction.
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Wait a second... if the success of one's own career lies in his/her hands and his/her hands only, why does it matter what "so-called professional organizations" say or think? You can't have it both ways: if you want to support a dog-eat-dog Darwinian point of view of the piloting profession, then you are rejecting ALL standards (other than mere survival), not just those you disagree with. Those of us who are banding together and trying to set some quality control for our profession are simply exercising our own right to affect our own career for the better. Difference is, we're trying to bring others up with us, as opposed to taking actions that will bring everyone down.

skydog said:
If pilots ever get down to minimum wage, it'll be their own fault, because they are the ones who continue to sign on for the job, regardless of what happens with wages. and working conditions. If they want to fly airplanes that badly, more power to them. It just means cheaper airfares for me.
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When it's your job and family on the line, I hope you realize that there are lots of people who are willing to pay a bit more so those who provide them with goods and services can make a fair living wage.

skydog said:
The professionis going down the tubes because the industry isn't making money. You want to improve your profession? Then do what you need to do to help your industry make money.
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If you look at the history of industry in the past two centuries, you'll find that wages and working conditions (i.e. the quality of a profession) is dependent on a heck of a lot more than the fundamental profitability of the industry! But I do agree, this industry certainly needs to be doing a better job at being profitable.
 
im just going to go ahead and say that i happily buck the general trend of this discussion (no CFI, wet comm, good paying job that i enjoy and is a challenging/learning experience) and i am thankful for finding the position i did, but i also credit my own determination and attitude to find work that i knew was a better fit than CFI'ing for me.

it can be done. it most CERTAINLY was no "short cut" to finding myself into the position i am in.

don't forget your "people skills".
 
There's nothing wrong with a forum for newbies. What's wrong is said newbies thinking that they know more than the experienced guys. A "forum for newbies" is a place for newbies to come and get educated from the experienced guys, not a place for them to "school" the experienced guys. The OP should be asking questions, not telling Captains what to do with their jumpseats
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And if those two people are of similar experience levels, then I see no problem with that. However, when the one starting the argument has virtually no experience and is arguing with people that have lots of experience, I have a big problem with that. That's not a legitimate way to learn. I'm not going to tell him what to do with his bus, because I have no experience with driving busses or dealing with the bussing industry. I expect similar deference from him.
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Let me try to explain my point of view. I was not trying to argue...I was trying to understand why "Professional" pilots would leave another "Professional" pilot in a bad position. In my industy we have undercutters too, but if one of them came up to me looking for a ride home and I have empty seats, I take them...as one professional to another because to me it doesn't matter who they're pulling for...it's another motorcoach driver worthy of my respect. Now I agree with a what somebody said about the GoJet guys trying to hide who they work for...if they tried that then yeah they may get left behind but not just because they work for GoJet

They money thing.....we disagree on that. I look at it like this....I could care less about the other companies out there. Our union is getting a contract with the approriate raises for all drivers. If they want to cut us down to what the chinese guys make....cool...as long as they understand that all we are doing is driving, no more customer service,no more helping with bags....no more nothing....just driving. If the company wants to retain the right to call us the "People Professionals" then they are going to have to pay us...simple as that. That a tactic ALPA should pick up....but I won't go there as a no-nothing.

When it's your job and family on the line, I hope you realize that there are lots of people who are willing to pay a bit more so those who provide them with goods and services can make a fair living wage.
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I would love to say that is true but it's not and we all know it. Fri I left Boston for New York City with about 25 people....the Megabus,Bolt Bus,and the two chinese carriers left right behind me...5 of us headed down all at the same time...those 4 were full. We charge 35 bucks they charge 20. Those 4 companies are making a killing off us and Greyhound, but do I blame those drivers...no I blame MY company for not being more proactive of maintaining their market share. 15 bucks more is not worth the movie for the same 214 miles we all do. I'm sure my company is using it as pressure on our union but it's up to our workgroup to keep our wages fair...not anybody else.
 
A320_DUDE said:
I was not trying to argue...I was trying to understand why "Professional" pilots would leave another "Professional" pilot in a bad position
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If you were just trying to understand, then you wouldn't have told us what to do with our jumpseats. Asking questions is fine, but that's not what you did.
 
A320_DUDE said:
I look at it like this....I could care less about the other companies out there. Our union is getting a contract with the approriate raises for all drivers. If they want to cut us down to what the chinese guys make....cool...as long as they understand that all we are doing is driving, no more customer service,no more helping with bags...
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Here's the difference. A CDL didn't take you several years and $20,000+ to get. Also, if your company shut down tomorrow because their routes were bought out by FungWah guys (which as somebody who grew up in the Pioneer Valley with Peter Pan all over the place would be really sad to me), your experience would probably transfer over to where ever you ended up.
 
BobDDuck said:
Here's the difference. A CDL didn't take you several years and $20,000+ to get. Also, if your company shut down tomorrow because their routes were bought out by FungWah guys (which as somebody who grew up in the Pioneer Valley with Peter Pan all over the place would be really sad to me), your experience would probably transfer over to where ever you ended up.
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Your 100% right. CDL drivers are a dime a dozen and those of us with "clean" CDLs can pretty much write our own ticket anywhere in the ground transportation industry. If you look at it, besides the wannabe airline pilot uniform I have to wear....I do the same exact job as a regional guy....I transport a metal tube with 55 passengers and their crap a couple hundred miles and try to do it without screwing up and hurting people. Only difference I do it on the ground.

PCL.....you're 100% right too. I was trying to tell you what to do with your jumpseat and for that I can be man enough to say I'm sorry. The captain has final say on who rides on the jumpseat and some no nothing ground pounder should ever undermine that.

But, IMHO the jumpseat should never be used to push an agenda. If I ever get to be a captain anywhere I won't deny it to anybody trying to get home or to work just because of where they work. That's my MO...and you have yours and I may not like it, but I'm not gonna argue it.

The whole PFT deal....again I not for it or against it, but I not gonna rag on people if they so decide to go that route. I personally think PFT is here to stay. It's just something else for the industry to get use to. People may not like it but it is working for some folks so I'm not gonna knock it.

And the CFI thing. If I'm a wuss for not wanting to do the CFI deal,so be it. I may have to do it in order to bulid my hours and who knows.....I may just come to enjoy it, but right now with in my mind I'd rather not. To be totally honest...it terrifies the hell outta be to be responsble for somebody elses training. I read all kinda stuff about bad CFIs and I don't want to join that special little group. If that makes me a wuss again so be it.
 
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