Attitudes

A320_DUDE

Well-Known Member
First off I just want to say that the Jetcareers forum is great and even though I don't post much I get alot of infomation as a lurker and from PMing other folks for more infomation. I have alot of respect for the people that have "made it" but some of the attitudes I have seen lately is kinda troubling.

Now flame me all you want but a simple conversation about Go-Jets turned into name calling and about denying them the jumpseat. Beyond the fact that it's childish I would go over to FI for that....I come here for positive reinforcement. Also IMHO denying somebody the jumpseat because of where they work is just petty,and yes I understand some of you guys can't take them because of the lack of a JS agreement but those of you that can should. Regardless of what uniform anybody is wearing they are airline pilots like yourself and should be treated as such. I ran into a similar issue at my job....a Megabus guy needed to get home to New Haven and since they don't serve that city he had to come over to us...I had open seats and told him to jump on and enjoy the movie. Could I have been a real ass and said NO...yeah and dispatch would have backed me up, but as another professional driver to another, I could not have left the guy there. Just something to think about.

Another thing that I don't like is judgements when people come on looking about info about certain schools. The mentality on JC is you have to CFI then go 135 freight then to the regionals and onward and upward. And GOD FORBID if you don't subscribe to that because then you just have SJS and threats of being blacklisted come out. Everybody has to choose they training path that works for them! What is so hard about accepting that. I have looked at part 61 FBOs in the Northeast and looked at some places like DCA,FSI,MAPD....I have even went so far as talking to the admissions people at GTA. Does that make me a bad person....NO, I'm just trying to find the best possible enviroment for my situation. But if you say you're considering places people consider you to be "unworthy" of respect here. Same thing when you say that being a CFI is not for you. I will say that some people like jtrain and Ian J have giving me some great points of doing the CFI thing but everybody else just jumps on the bandwagon of "YOU HAVE TO OR YOU WON'T BE AS WORTHY" mindset and that why some of these threads go on for 10 pages for no real reason other than calling each other names.

Other than that....I get alot out of this website. Even though I have such a bad procrastinating problem I hopefully will start some training in the '09 and hope to share that with the folks here.

Just remember....Be Tolerant!
 

SFCC/UND

Well-Known Member
I hope you don't take it personally, but many people will post things that in life they won't normally say to your face. This is a place where they can bash on people and get away with it. So with that in mind, I think people do this because they are trying to protect you from making a bad decision. Beside if you start a topic about Gojet you're most likely going to get a lot of negative comments.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
It's important to emphasis that the subject of GoJets brings negative comments because there are no positive comments that could be said regarding the company, their birth, and their ultimate existence when being evaluated from a professional pilot point of view, and specifically a 121 professional pilot point of view.

The comments are negative because they have evidence to support their negative appearance.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Glad you posted how you feel. I am going to post rebuttals to your points. Please this is not flame bait. I am going to say it like it is.

I have alot of respect for the people that have "made it" but some of the attitudes I have seen lately is kinda troubling.
Jumpseat on an American Airlines flight. Those are some interesting attitudes.


Beyond the fact that it's childish I would go over to FI for that....I come here for positive reinforcement.
This website is very positive. However, do you want us to lie and say these things do not happen? Is that educating those who are getting into the profession?


Also IMHO denying somebody the jumpseat because of where they work is just petty,and yes I understand some of you guys can't take them because of the lack of a JS agreement but those of you that can should.
Once again, it happens. As Pilot in Command and signing the 'Hertz Rental Agreement' it is my jumpseat and I have control who occupies it.

Regardless of what uniform anybody is wearing they are airline pilots like yourself and should be treated as such.
When Braniff was going through financial trouble and close to closing down, another Dallas based airline used to take ALL the runway up when landing if Braniff was behind them. This forced Braniff to go around and burn more fuel. These things have happened in the past and will happen many times in the future. It is what it is.


Everybody has to choose they training path that works for them!
True, but if a training path that works for an individual is cutting corners to get to the right seat the fastest way instead of learning, then I will tell them that they are going about it the wrong way.

I have even went so far as talking to the admissions people at GTA.
See above.

Just remember....Be Tolerant!

Good luck with things! Glad you posted how you feel and you see some of the points in my rebuttal!
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
When Braniff was going through financial trouble and close to closing down, another Dallas based airline used to take ALL the runway up when landing if Braniff was behind them. This forced Braniff to go around and burn more fuel. These things have happened in the past and will happen many times in the future. It is what it is.

I've heard of this before, and I knew a guy who would do it to a company he hated (only because one of the pilots nailed his wife, which lead to a very messy divorce, its not logical but kind of funny) he would also slow up on approach when the wx was getting bad so that maybe they'd have to go missed and he wouldn't. F'ed up. Yep. Funny? Kinda.
 

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
GoJets is a problem in and of itself and I think we have covered the problems with them ad nauseum and why it isn't petty or unprofessional to deny them a free ride.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Most of the pilot here will take jumpseaters that are not on the official jumpseat list if company policies allow it. At some carriers the PIC's hands are tied by rules management has set in place.

<O:p</O:pIn regards to the career paths people take to get the airlines are many. The traditional path is CFI, 135, regional, major. The traditional path offers the one thing the PFT schools can't EXPERIENCE. That is just something you cannot teach it has to be learned over time. A PIC at regional should not have to babysit or play MEI to the guy in the right seat who bought his job. You can teach someone to fly the plane by the book at a PFT school but as soon as you get off profile, have compound problems with the aircraft, or something that wasn't "taught" at the PFT school the PIC is pretty much on his own.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

The other problem with PFT/SJS is these people are willing to pay to work for an airline and then accept peanuts for wages. How is this helping the industry? It isn't; all it is doing is putting under qualified people in the right seat and pushing wages down.<O:p</O:p
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
I appreciate your input.

However, there are just a couple of things I'd like to elucidate.

There are a number of ways to skin a dead cat, but there are certainly more optimal ways of going about it.

Our profession has been under assault for years and part of the assault is PFT programs because if someone is willing to pay an airline to do the job, why in the world would an airline pay someone to do it? That drives wages and benefits down, especially because in this business, poop defies gravity and rolls up hill.

If you drop some coin to purchase a job or go to work for a carrier that was admittedly formed to do an end run around another labor group's contract, even at a regional flying 1900's, eventually that decision will be felt by a guy flying fat dumb and happy in a 747.

A lot of pilots don't want to accept that small decisions made early in your career have deleterious effects on others. Some folks are much more radical than others, but that's any profession.

It's more or less an information kiosk. You're going to get a bevvy of opinions on even things like white or dark meat/original or extra crispy KFC so naturally when issues like GoJets, or Eaglejet or even where choosing to do flight training is going to evoke a number of opinions.

On the jumpseat issue. I don't have a jumpseat, the captain does at my airline. It's different at other carriers. Some jumpseat riders consider it a professional courtesy, others consider it a God-given right. It's pretty simple. If you're humble and respectful of the flight crew extending you a courtesy of a free ride, you're going. If you step up to the captain, misrepresent yourself or cop an attitude you're NOT going.

It's really simple.

Even when I ride my own airline, even with a reservation, apart from boarding priority over other pilots, it's not my irrevocable right to the jumpseat because it's a professional courtesy of the captain. If you approach it with that attitude, it doesn't matter what you read on the internet. Plus, if you're constantly relying on an OAL jumpseat to get from home to work, you might want to reconsider where you're living or where you're based. Period. And I'm serious!

A couple points that will help you as you move on in this profession.

Crap always rolls uphill.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Don't be afraid to listen.

Read the FAQ, flash your BIOS, thank you for calling Dell technical support.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Whether you agree to the politics of this industry or not, you have to deal with them. I personally agree that the whole GoJets thing has been blown way out of proportion, but it is best to not stir the pot.

This website is about information about JET CAREERS. Even though it may not all be positive, it allows outsiders to get a view of what is going on.

I never knew I could go to a local flight school and get my flight training done. I thought I HAD to go somewhere like DCA, FSI, ATP, etc... I went to DCA when it was called Comair, and spent a boatload of money on my private. I saw that I was paying 49.50/hr. (2001 prices) for instruction, and the guy that I was getting instruction from was making 8.00/hr. and driving a POS car, barely surviving. At that point, I decided to just take my time and pay as I go. It took me 6 more years to get instrument through CFI, but I came out with no debt and feel better about my situation.

If I had found this website, I would have saved a lot of money and would have gotten everything done faster.
 

MusketeerMan

Well-Known Member
Or on approach when its kinda gusty they suck. Might as well just cut them off, leave it at 80% n2, and pull it off at 30 ft.
Agree...I'm finding on a lot of approaches it smoother to turn them off, not to mention the A/T's may suck depending on the plane.
 

A320_DUDE

Well-Known Member
I just have a question (which may get me kicked off here) but why is everybody SO concerned about the other persons contract. There seems to be SO much emphasis about "holding the line". Again I use my current job as an example....right now we are in contract talks...not a good time to be there as we have the same concerns the airlines do, high fuel costs, higher fees for use of bridges and tunnel and so on and so on. The first thing the company did in these "talks" was to pull out info about what drivers at other companies were making. What was our unions response..."SO WHAT". We have now been without a contract for about 5 months (which I know is a pimple on the ass of time) but when you VOTE in strong people into your union leadership positions, this is what you get....leadership and an unwillingness to sell the rank and file down the river for lies & BS. I think making sure that your own union is strong enough to get the contract YOUR group is entitled to is YOUR responsiblity.


As for the whole PFT deal....there are countless pages here about that. I choose not to judge those who go down that path...like I said earlier, I've though about it. Everybody has to choose their own path for flight training as there is no "one size fits all". I just think people should think about that before they have 10 kittens because someone says they are thinking about going to GTA or Eaglejet.

CFIs....I give you guys and girls ALL the credit in the world for what you do out there. I just don't think I have the paintence to do it. Everybody out there knows of people who are CFIs that should'nt be....I don't want to be that guy, but by some peoples logic that makes me a bad person....in my mind I'm saving myself and any future students any grief.

I guess we can all agree to disagree on this one. I know things out there isn't all sugar and spice but can we tell the truth without all the viral stuff.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
I just have a question (which may get me kicked off here) but why is everybody SO concerned about the other persons contract. There seems to be SO much emphasis about "holding the line".
Everyone is SO concerned about holding the line because of this concept...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_bargaining

As for the whole PFT deal....there are countless pages here about that. I choose not to judge those who go down that path...like I said earlier, I've though about it. Everybody has to choose their own path for flight training as there is no "one size fits all". I just think people should think about that before they have 10 kittens because someone says they are thinking about going to GTA or Eaglejet.

What happens if I paid $30,000 to your company for YOUR job?

With the information out there today, I will continually go balistic when someone wants to defend PFT. I understand there are many ways to flight train, but PFT brings down this profession.
 

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Pattern bargaining, that's why we're concerned about other companies contracts.

You know what I have to say about the rest of your post.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I just have a question (which may get me kicked off here) but why is everybody SO concerned about the other persons contract. There seems to be SO much emphasis about "holding the line". Again I use my current job as an example....right now we are in contract talks...not a good time to be there as we have the same concerns the airlines do, high fuel costs, higher fees for use of bridges and tunnel and so on and so on. The first thing the company did in these "talks" was to pull out info about what drivers at other companies were making. What was our unions response..."SO WHAT". We have now been without a contract for about 5 months (which I know is a pimple on the ass of time) but when you VOTE in strong people into your union leadership positions, this is what you get....leadership and an unwillingness to sell the rank and file down the river for lies & BS. I think making sure that your own union is strong enough to get the contract YOUR group is entitled to is YOUR responsiblity.
You answered you own question. Wouldn't it be nice if your union leadership could pull out the other companies contract as a starting point.

CFIs....I give you guys and girls ALL the credit in the world for what you do out there. I just don't think I have the paintence to do it. Everybody out there knows of people who are CFIs that should'nt be....I don't want to be that guy, but by some peoples logic that makes me a bad person....in my mind I'm saving myself and any future students any grief.

I guess we can all agree to disagree on this one. I know things out there isn't all sugar and spice but can we tell the truth without all the viral stuff.
Most people don't feel being a CFI is the only way to build time. I would say most of us just want people to build time the right way. That means getting paid a fair wage for your time.
 

A320_DUDE

Well-Known Member
What happens if I paid $30,000 to your company for YOUR job?
Dude if someone wanted to plunk down 30k to fight NYC traffic 4 days a week and do a Boston double banger on the 5th day or even worse be on the spareboard and be at the mercy of dispatch then more power to them. Why pay 30k for a job when you might not clear 30k on 1st year pay anyway.

With the information out there today, I will continually go balistic when someone wants to defend PFT. I understand there are many ways to flight train, but PFT brings down this profession.
I'm not defending PFT. I'm saying I understand why people are doing it and I'm not for-or-against doing it. I've thought about it and decided that I don't want to enter the industry like that, but I'm not gonna put down those who are doing what they have to do.

I also understand about Pattern Bargining....and I understand Gonzo's reasoning, but I'm also glad that my union does not have to use what somebody else has to improve upon what we have.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as being an ass or just plain hardheaded but I don't see the point in flipping out because somebody is PFTing. In my industry we have Greyhound,Megabus, Bolt and the chinese guys beside us "Tink the Fairy" guys and the only people making more than us is GLI. Do I agree with these other guys doing the same job for less...no, but I'm not gonna flip out when I hear somebody saying..."I'm gonna go to Bolt cuz they have a cooler uniform than you guys" (and yes that was the reasoning somebody gave). I was actually a little hurt cuz we get to wear the whole airline pilot deal here (epulates too!)
 
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