Thinking about the Navy/Air Force

[Hacker15e]

Re: Navy/Airforce

In conclusion, it seems like that "as a generalization" the level of ground responsibilities are different for the first 4-6 years.

Possibly true.

Even so, it is really a stretch to extend that preception to support the original comment I had a beef with:

If you want to work hard and learn leadership early, become a Marine or Navy pilot.

Look, guys -- I've worked with Navy and Marine guys at the CAOC/JOC, too over the 14 years I've been on active duty...the difference is, I don't use that experience to imply that I know even the slightest thing about what it means to be an officer in either of those services. For you guys to make broad-brush statements about what kinds of leadership and responsibilities a USAF pilot will have is about as valid as me saying I know what it's like to be a SEAL because I talked with one every day for 3 months in the JOC once. Hell, I don't even know what it's like to be a pilot in a non-fighter squadron, so I don't attempt to speak for other parts of my own service, much less other services. I've got a brother who is a former VP pilot and I've heard all about "what it's like" from him...still, I don't delude myself into thinking that have any real idea.

I don't know why it is, but your opinions on this issue are widely held across the Navy community -- this is not the first time I've heard it. I can't tell if it's due to the standard USAF-bashing that Navy guys participate in for sport, or if it's just oft-repeated ignorance that has become truth data over time.

While the one circumstance you mention is true -- you're right that maintenance troops are supervised by Maintenance officers in the USAF, vs an aviator in the Navy -- what about the remainder of the guys in the squadron? Does EVERY officer have supervision of 30 enlisted guys?

Point being, while there is a slight validity to the point that USN aviators have more enlisted supervisory experience as an O-1 or O-2 (seriously, though...how many O-1s are actually supervising anyone with how long USN flight training takes?), that is a huge leap to the generalization made in the quote above.

 

[germb747]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Point being, while there is a slight validity to the point that USN aviators have more enlisted supervisory experience as an O-1 or O-2 (seriously, though...how many O-1s are actually supervising anyone with how long USN flight training takes?), that is a huge leap to the generalization made in the quote above.

Probably none in the flying community. I know Air Force butter bars who have supervised lots of enlisted troops--in security forces. But not flyers. Hell, I'm an O-2 about to be an O-3 and don't supervise anyone.

 

[Hacker15e]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Probably none in the flying community. I know Air Force butter bars who have supervised lots of enlisted troops--in security forces. Not not flyers. Hell, I'm an O-2 about to be an O-3 and don't supervise anyone.

I was asking about the Navy. The example was given that the maintenance branch chief in a Navy flying squadron supervises a lot of enlisted personnel...my question was, in a Navy flying squadron, how many other O-1 through O-3 jobs have that same level of supervision?

There are plenty of USAF O-1 jobs that have that level of supervision. I was a maintenance officer right after commissioning, and on my first day I was in charge of 250 enlisted personnel.

 

[RPJ]

To the Original Poster:

There is a lot of great advice contained within this thread. I love our country and I am very glad to be born here. I have the utmost respect for our military personnel on all levels. These people are indeed the finest Americans. Now with that said, you must realize when you join the military you will be required to fight or support the fight in some way. When an individual joins the service for one particular reason or another they may be setting themselves up for disappointment.

I have two very good friends that are military aviators that I went to high school with and still keep in touch with today. One is in the Army and flies the AH-64D and the other is in the Navy and flies the F/A-18E. Both are very smart and driven individuals. Both joined the service for the main reason to get flight experience and move on to the airlines/ helo ambulance one day. When I speak to them which is usually at least once a month, they tell me how much they love what they do. But they BOTH end up at one point or another in the conversation tell me that sometimes they think about what they do on a daily basis before they sleep at night/morning. How the couple minutes before falling asleep the reality of what they do hits them.

The one in the Army tells me that he cant escape the images of his gunner "chopping" the enemy, people, down. He explains that people don't always stop after being hit and they try to run or crawl away and then he gives the command to fire again and watches the enemy die. He states that "they are trying to kill our soldiers and I know that I am doing the right thing". He also went on to say "when in the act in the moment you don't have these feeling, I don't feel anything at that exact moment. Its only when I am not in the situation and back by myself I start tripping out. I am killing people. My job is to hurt and kill people in order to save my people." He then kinda laughed and said "It's F'ing crazy."

Now he knew when he got the AH-64 he was going to be doing the dirty work but it did not hit him until after he was already doing it. The gravity of the situation.

My other friend in the Navy has a slightly more collected demeanor. He rarely shows his feelings, even way before he joined the service. When we talk he says he is glad to be dropping arms on the enemy and how much of a privilege it is to be a Naval combat aviator. But he on his own accord always comes back to the topic of "collateral damage". How he knows that every time he drops ammunition that possibly he is killing someone innocent or non combatant. The way he puts it "wrong place wrong time buddy". He said that he saw the effects of a particular mission that was broad casted on AP online and how there was a "high" amount of collateral damage. He told me that it bothers him because he grew up Catholic and never saw himself doing this in any capacity.


Both of my friends have no regrets on the lifestyle they chose. But they both do have some type of mental "fatigue" of what the govt is tasking them to do on a regular basis.

I am not a bleeding heart liberal or a staunch conservative. I realize that war is unfortunately a necessary evil in our imperfect world. The only reason I am posting this is so hopefully you take into consideration of what you are really looking to possibly do. Can you understand that if you join for a personal reason that you could be getting more than your asking for?

One of the previous posters said it best, only join if you have the overwhelming need to SERVE our country. Everything else second.

This is all my humble opinion and handing down what my two good friends have said to me. I have no military background. I wish you the best of luck in any direction you choose to pursue aviation.

-Ryan

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Navy/Airforce

I don't know why it is, but your opinions on this issue are widely held across the Navy community -- this is not the first time I've heard it. I can't tell if it's due to the standard USAF-bashing that Navy guys participate in for sport, or if it's just oft-repeated ignorance that has become truth data over time.

While the one circumstance you mention is true -- you're right that maintenance troops are supervised by Maintenance officers in the USAF, vs an aviator in the Navy -- what about the remainder of the guys in the squadron? Does EVERY officer have supervision of 30 enlisted guys?

Point being, while there is a slight validity to the point that USN aviators have more enlisted supervisory experience as an O-1 or O-2 (seriously, though...how many O-1s are actually supervising anyone with how long USN flight training takes?), that is a huge leap to the generalization made in the quote above.

Hacker, For the record, whatever "institutional" USAF bashing that may or may not be happening, I AM NOT part of the conspiracy. (It should be obvious why not) You asked for evidence, and i tried to provide some facts and reasons as to why a reasonable argument could be made for the original assertion and not out of ignorance, and even the counter viewpoint that the USAF way may indeed be better. If you feel strongly that USAF JOs have significant ground managerial responsibilities then you should post facts instead of slamming those that do. i am not going to get drawn into service rivalry spat, especially considering the color of the uniform in my closet. Now as far as answering your latest questions:
1. Few "rated guys", read pilot/NFO, come to the sqdn as an O1. Since the NAVCAD program is no more, very few. It depends on the community, pipeline delays etc. Myself, after navigator and electronic warfare school, spent 6 months in the sqdn as "Bull Ensign" before making O2. Most guys came as a LTJG.
2. In a 3 yr tour, JOs will hold a ground job for 1 year before rotating to another to gain experience in different departments. Each job I had, I had enlisted personel reporting to me varying from 2 to 75. Remember a Navy Sqdn (especially a MPA or Reconnaisance sqdn)are set up more like the old AF group stucture. Where Nav departments are more like sqdns in an AF group or wing, but on a smaller scale. Pretty much a fair statement that all 1st tour JOs had significant supervisory or staff responsibilities from day one.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Probably none in the flying community. I know Air Force butter bars who have supervised lots of enlisted troops--in security forces. Not not flyers. Hell, I'm an O-2 about to be an O-3 and don't supervise anyone.

The way it should be. Mastering the air job should be priority numero uno.
Also reflective of reality and perception of the USAF JO, not some navy institutional bashing of the USAF.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Navy/Airforce

I don't know why it is, but your opinions on this issue are widely held across the Navy community -- this is not the first time I've heard it. I can't tell if it's due to the standard USAF-bashing that Navy guys participate in for sport, or if it's just oft-repeated ignorance that has become truth data over time.

BTW, this is SWEEPING and ungenerous generalization.

 

[splash]

The thought of killing people just to get to the majors someday makes me sick. I don't trust the government about what we are fighting for over there. Waste of life. Sounds like a bunch of brain washing to me. Look out for the sugar coats, they are professionals at it!

 

[Fugawe]

At the risk of alienating about 90% of the good folks on JC with this outrageous analogy, becoming a military pilot to achieve the "goal" of a airline job is like joining the FBI in order to eventually be a "Mall Ninja" (security guard).

Now that's funny crap!