Thinking about the Navy/Air Force

[Hacker15e]

Re: Navy/Airforce

If you want to work hard and learn leadership early, become a Marine or Navy pilot. Realize that the Air Force takes better care of their pilots and your quality of life will be better. If your only goal is to go from Military to Airlines, then you would most likely be happier in the Air Force.

Dude, you're showing a pretty significant service bias (nice way of saying 'ignorance') in making a statement like this.

 

[MDPilot]

At the risk of alienating about 90% of the good folks on JC with this outrageous analogy, becoming a military pilot to achieve the "goal" of a airline job is like joining the FBI in order to eventually be a "Mall Ninja" (security guard).

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Dude, you're showing a pretty significant service bias (nice way of saying 'ignorance') in making a statement like this.

That argument is reasonable, and not necessarily made out of ignorance. Naval Aviators (pilots and NFOs "rated" if you will) have ground responsibilities that are significantly higher than USAF counterparts. Every Ensign, LTJG, LT has a flying job and a ground job. My first job as an Ensign was branch officer in maintenance and I had 30 folks working for me.
There are only so many sleeping berths on a ship and a Navy wardroom may have 5% of its officers that are not flyers. It is not uncommon for O-1 or O-2 to have responsibilities (ground ) not seen by USAF fliers until the senior O3 O4 level. Remember that a Navy squadron may have maintenance personnel, admin folks, IT, supply, legal yada yada yada integrated in the squadron. I have a lot of buddies in the USAF that didnt have a full-time ground job that ate up a lot of their time until they had about 6 years in...

Counter arguments can be made on which way is better. I personally think that the first 4 years of an aviator should stress perfecting the aviator, as a reflection of the great investment made in that individual.

I am not a USAF basher either. Currently not affliated with a unit but I am field grade USAFR officer.

 

[derg]

At the risk of alienating about 90% of the good folks on JC with this outrageous analogy, becoming a military pilot to achieve the "goal" of a airline job is like joining the FBI in order to eventually be a "Mall Ninja" (security guard).

That's good! I like it!

Hmm.... F/A-18's... or a Mad Dog... hmm....

 

[Hacker15e]

Re: Navy/Airforce

That argument is reasonable, and not necessarily made out of ignorance. Naval Aviators (pilots and NFOs "rated" if you will) have ground responsibilities that are significantly higher than USAF counterparts. Every Ensign, LTJG, LT has a flying job and a ground job. My first job as an Ensign was branch officer in maintenance and I had 30 folks working for me.

Wow. I guess I have been hallucinating in all the flying squadrons I've been part of, because every officer (O-1 on up) had a desk job. Nearly all the O-3 jobs had supervisory responsibility.

What yardstick are you using here to define "ground responsibilities that are significantly higher"? Is that just a feeling you have, or are there actual tangible criteria?

Have you been part of any USAF fighter squadrons? What type of unit have you been a USAFR officer with? I can't speak for how it is in the USAF heavy community, but based on every fighter unit I've been with, both of your guys' posts are way off base.

 

[mjg407]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Absolutely, 100% correct. However, the original poster seems like to fly a LOT. I was referring to his need to fly, not his need to meet minimums for airlines. Heck, I'd even take your point further and argue that the networking you accomplish within the military will help you get a great airline job even more.




For the given mission, yes. For CRM after flying single pilot operations for a career? No.

If you fly single seat FA-18s yes. However over 80% of Naval Air has more than one bubba in the cockpit. (Helos, Patrol, EA-6Bs, S-3s, E-2s) Heck if you are unlucky enough you may have up to 24 bubas....

 

[mjg407]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Dude, you're showing a pretty significant service bias (nice way of saying 'ignorance') in making a statement like this.

Hacker your taking it way to personal. I spent two years at a joint command so we all shared our experiences. My point wasn't trying to bash the AF, it was actually talking about that the Nav tends to eat its own, and unlike the AF, once you make O-4 it is the exception not the rule that you continue to fly. Once making O-5 you are done flying (with a small exception) unless you screen for squadron command. The Air Force facilities (especially overseas) are way better than the Naval Base equivalent and I can say that having been fortunate enough to be based out of two in Asia.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: Navy/Airforce

Wow. I guess I have been hallucinating in all the flying squadrons I've been part of, because every officer (O-1 on up) had a desk job. Nearly all the O-3 jobs had supervisory responsibility.

What yardstick are you using here to define "ground responsibilities that are significantly higher"? Is that just a feeling you have, or are there actual tangible criteria?

Have you been part of any USAF fighter squadrons? What type of unit have you been a USAFR officer with? I can't speak for how it is in the USAF heavy community, but based on every fighter unit I've been with, both of your guys' posts are way off base.

Hacker,

I think you may be misinterpreting what I am saying. You were the one that used the ignorance line. I was just presenting the view that those statements just might not be based on ignorance.

My point is that flying a many million $$ machine and making life and death decisions or operational decisions that represent the US of A should be enough for a 23 year old to 28 yr old. The USAF structure tends to do this. Different doesnt mean better or worse... It means different, so please don't get defensive- I am not attacking the USAF. Some of my opinions are similar to cultural differences things that are discussed in the Air Command and Staff curricula.

1. The USAF e to o ratio is differs significantly from the other 3 branches, most starkly with the USMC. In other words there are a lot more chiefs for every indian.
2. The USAF hasnt had a CWO program in 40 years.
3. I think it is much more common in the USAF that officers lead officers, so this won't be a 2nd lieutenant in the leadership role. As your post seems to imply, not every rated officer has a large supervisory role in the begining.
4. At my first squadron (granted one of the largest in the Navy) I reported as a Senior ENS. I was given a shop of 30 folks and reported to a LT Div O with 75 folks who reported to the MO department head (LCDR) with 250 folks who reported to the skipper (O5) with over 600 in the squadron.

Would you ever find this in a USAF squadron?

5. Personal experience- Any time I went to the CAOC or a joint staff the Navy sent O3s to do the same job the USAF would send an O4 or O5.

6. Navy and USMC have a different warfare focus than the air.

In conclusion, it seems like that "as a generalization" the level of ground responsibilities are different for the first 4-6 years. Also it is arguable better if a pilot or WSO master his flying job first instead of having to do a juggling act.

 

[mjg407]

Well said Gran... check your inbox.

 

[sixoneseven]

The Navy is a great idea. I think you can fly jets off carriers if you want. My friend is a CFI part-time, full time Oberlin Student going into his 4th year of neuroscience with a 3.5 GPA, plays varsity baseball for the college and scored a 9, 9, 9 and 66 on his ASTB.

I wouldn't want to compete against him!

If you want to do it, you can!

 

[HeyEng]

A couple of things. To the OP: It sounds like you REALLY want to fly. I would recommend the civilian route. In the AF, you ARE going to have a desk job pretty much from day 1 after training. Also, depending on airframe, you may spend LOTS of time behind a desk and not too much time in an airplane. For JUST flying, the civilian route is better. One other thing, in this day and age, in the AF you will ge to do deployments. These deployments are usually NON FLYING jobs (at least in the C-5 world). Just some food for thought.

For Hacker: In the C-5 world, most of the O-2s DO NOT have office jobs. They may sit the scheduling desk on occassion or get stuck working the ops center, but for the most part, they are in training...and thus on the road. Of course, flying isn't as busy now, so office jobs are a little more common. Now once you get O-3 (and looking to hang around) you are going to get the fun staff tours, OIC jobs and the like.

 

[mjg407]

Just for the original poster here is what to expect as a Naval Aviator. If all you want to do is fly, it's the wrong move. Also, if you come with that attitude, chances are after your first tour you will be done being in the cockpit.

O-1 12-18 months training the off to squadron
02-03 3years first tour squadron. Start off as branch officer, finish as a Division Officer (75-100 people). Most likely two deployments either shipboard or shore depending on the platform

03 Shore Tour - Back to training command/replacement squadron if you get a flying tour

03 Disassociated Sea Tour - Out as ships company to the carrier. Your job is shooter and one of the bigger divisions (200-300 young lads out to sea for 6 months)

04- Department Head Tour - Goal is Maintenance or Operations Officer

04 - Post DH (War College, DC, Aide (read not flying)

05 - If you screen for Command back to flying, if not, back to a ship
Mind you also at some time in here you will need to fill and IA (Individual Augmentee) which is one year in country (AFG, Iraq, Djibouti, etc).

I will also add that my time was the most rewarding time of my life. I was fortunate to stay in the cockpit my entire career, which is the exception. I will also add that now being in civilian aviation, many of the responsibilities and decisions I was allowed to make are not there because of a need for "profit", timelines....etc.

 

[Velocipede]

As a former Navy pilot here's what I'd do if I had it to do all over again:

If I was set on the military, I'd find a tanker/C-17 squadron and go in the Air National Guard. Benefit: You know what kind of airplane you'll fly out of the training command. In these outfits you'll get PLENTY of flight time. And when your active duty commitment is up, you're pretty much guaranteed a reserve slot, if you want to continue.

Second choice: Air Force and crap shoot for the same kind of airplanes. However, in the Air Force and Navy, your choice of planes is limited by your flight school grades AND what happens to be available the week you graduate.

But, ultimately, I'd take the civilian route. You might have to spend 4 or 5 years slogging around the Regional world, but military commitments these days run 9 to 11 years. And when you get to your ultimate airline, seniority is EVERYTHING.

I did 11.5 years of active duty. I'll retire at number 195ish of 1530 pilots. I'll never even break the top 100. That translates into a LOT of days off and prime vacation days I'll never see.

I did the military because I was basicly too cheap to pay for flight school. The only training I ever paid for personally was my ATP and FE written classes. The trade off was loss of a LOT of seniority I'd be enjoying now in the last 10 years of my career.

 

[n57flyguy]

As a former Navy pilot here's what I'd do if I had it to do all over again:

If I was set on the military, I'd find a tanker/C-17 squadron and go in the Air National Guard. Benefit: You know what kind of airplane you'll fly out of the training command. In these outfits you'll get PLENTY of flight time. And when your active duty commitment is up, you're pretty much guaranteed a reserve slot, if you want to continue.

I neglected to mention that earlier...I've seen jobs for C-17 ANG pilots. Allthough they like to see a four year degree and a good amount of flight time already.

 

[woodreau]

To the original poster,

If you are looking to try to score a pilot slot or a commissioning slot in the Navy or Air Force through ROTC, you are already behind the power curve if you are about to become a junior in college. While you can still go through the officer program beginning as a junior and the 2-year ROTC program, by now you should have already either be "in" or not by talking to someone, probably one of the officers in the ROTC unit.

To walk in at the beginning of your junior year to see about getting comissioned to be a pilot, is kind of a non-starter. There would a lot of hoops to jump through to expedite the process to get you in, so you'll have be to a very desirable prospect at that point to make someone want to do all that work for you.

I have never really wanted to CFI and recently a fellow pilot came in and talked to me about the Navy and what it had to offer. It sounded like an awesome adventure and experience. Something that I dont think I would get as much of if i were to CFI.

I did 10 years in the Navy as a shoe, and it was an awesome adventure - wouldn't want to trade that time for anything - after spending all that time shooting down airplanes and hundreds of practice surface to air engagements against comm-airs off socal and vacapes, I decided that I wanted to fly the targets.

 

[germb747]

Hell, we have majors and light colonels who don't do jack but fly, but the reserves do work a little differently. The ARTs do most of the "office duties". However, obviously they needed more on their OPRs than that plus their PME to get selected for field grade; there was a lot more administrative work going on during the activation.

 

[H46Bubba]

At the risk of alienating about 90% of the good folks on JC with this outrageous analogy, becoming a military pilot to achieve the "goal" of a airline job is like joining the FBI in order to eventually be a "Mall Ninja" (security guard).

Awsome!

 

[ETAV8R]

Every Marine a rifleman

Marine officers know how to lead grunts, its what they do. Even Marine aviators know how and are trained during OCS to lead ground operations. They may not be as good as a regular ground officer after a few years. This is where the connection with our pilots comes in, they know first hand what its like down there. I sincerely doubt most AF/ANG O's have this connection. I know my parents had little knowledge of what really happens with ground combat operations.

I think the OP's best fit would be with ANG even though they prefer to know the person they send to OCS/Flight training, read enlisted. This being said I don't feel the military way is for the OP. Service first, then everything else is gravy.

 

[SierraPilot123]

I was in yours shoes a few years ago and thought about these options very closely. My dillemenia was AirForce vs. CFI. I had good connections on the airforce side and good health for a pilot slot but not very keen on moving around all the time.

I made a chart with all the positives and negatives of each. I walked by it each day and eventually came to the conclusion that the civilian route was the way I wanted to go. But these decisions are very personal and can really depend on a lot of factors. Look at everything closely and chose what you think would fit you best in the long run. And don't forget to factor in what path will allow you to support yourself and perhaps a family one day. How much are you going to enjoy living out your dream if you can't pay the cell phone bill and are always worrying about money?

 

[Hacker15e]

I sincerely doubt most AF/ANG O's have this connection.

You're right...neither do Navy officers.