So you want to be a pilot?

mrambo

Well-Known Member
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/business/10pilots.html

April 10, 2008
For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality

By JEFF BAILEY
IRVING, Tex. — Among the jobs little boys dream of — policeman, fireman, bulldozer driver — airline pilot long held the added virtue of satisfying grown-up dreams: pay that reached $300,000 a year, 20 days a month off work, the prestige of one day commanding a $200 million airplane, and a lush retirement at 60.

But the airline industry’s financial collapse this decade did away with much of that, leaving thousands of young men — and increasingly women — chasing a dream toward a disappointing reality.

“My wife thinks I’m nuts,” said Jason Captain, 32, of Fort Worth who left the Navy last November, walking away from $75,000-a-year lieutenant’s pay for flying military brass in and out of Guantánamo Bay.

He started training last month to fly a 76-seat regional jet for a Northwest Airlines subsidiary and expects to make about $21,000 his first year. Like most airline pilots, Mr. Captain had his heart set on flying “ever since I was a little kid,” he said. “I can’t see myself in an office.”

In recent years, he and his wife, June, were in the odd position of saving part of his military pay so they and their two sons could afford to have him work in the private sector. It could take him a decade to work his way back up to his former income.

He hopes, of course, to jump ultimately to the big jets at Northwest Airlines, where the most senior pilots can still make more than $150,000 a year, but there is no guarantee he will get there.

And, with the airline industry ready to go into another swoon because of high fuel prices, Mr. Captain and other junior pilots could find themselves furloughed.

“You’re much better off going into plumbing, from a purely financial perspective,” said Ed Grogan, a financial planner in Gig Harbor, Wash., who has pilots among his clients.

The military is turning out fewer pilots, so aspiring aviators increasingly attend private flight schools, emerging with as much as $150,000 in student debt. Student loan payments can exceed $1,000 a month.

After Sept. 11, 2001, the biggest domestic airlines reduced their fleets by hundreds of planes, so they needed fewer pilots. And through actual and threatened bankruptcies, airlines managed to cut pilot pay by 30 percent or more. Many pilots lost big parts of their pensions. Work hours increased.

Certainly, top pay of $200,000 a year at the biggest airlines, down from $300,000, is still a nice living.

But cuts at big airlines were just the beginning of the decline in pilot careers. Regional airlines, which pay far less than hub-and-spoke carriers even after the pay cuts, expanded to handle much of the flying that bigger airlines had abandoned. Many new pilot jobs are like the one Mr. Captain is taking, with a rock-bottom starting wage that creeps slowly toward $100,000 a year.

Poor pay and fewer big-airline jobs to move up to have led to fewer applicants, creating a pilot shortage that is most acute overseas but is also felt here.

Regional airlines have had to reduce hiring standards drastically. Earlier this decade, they could insist on a candidate’s having at least 1,500 hours of total flight time before an interview. Today, that minimum is 500 hours at many regional carriers. The decline is contributing to safety concerns among some experts.

The seniority system — a new pilot starts at the bottom at most airlines, earning the lowest pay and getting the worst shifts — limits job-hopping. So choosing the right employer the first time around is crucial. Moving from first officer, the right seat, to captain, the left seat, brings the biggest leap in pay and status.

Thus, Mr. Captain, who looks forward to being called Captain Captain, turned down a job at American Eagle Airlines, the regional division of American Airlines. It initially paid better, but the wait to upgrade to captain is six and a half years. At the Northwest regional carrier, Compass, which is growing, he could make captain in as little as one year.

But things change. Network carriers like United Airlines and Delta Air Lines hire regional carriers, which are separate companies, to fly feeder routes from smaller cities into hub airports. But the big airlines renegotiate contracts every few years, often switching carriers to reduce costs. That means today’s fast-growing regional airline could be laying off pilots tomorrow.

“It’s a nightmare,” said Kit Darby, who retired a year ago as a United pilot and runs a pilot job fair business, Air Inc.

Some pilots leave the business. Paul Rice, a vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a pilots union, said that in previous decades nearly 100 percent of furloughed pilots came back when temporary layoffs ended. Since Sept. 11, 2001, though, 30 to 35 percent did not return when offered their old jobs.

At Mesa Air Group, a big regional carrier, 784 pilots left last year, some moving up to hub-and-spoke network carriers, some moving laterally to other regional airlines and about 10 percent leaving the business altogether, said Michael Jayson, until recently the pilots union chief at Mesa. Turnover is high at some other regional airlines, too.

Todd Lehmacher, 39, learned to fly as a teenager and worked a variety of airline jobs in crew scheduling and as a ticket pricing specialist and flight attendant while accumulating the flying hours to be a pilot. “It was something I just had to do,” he said.

He was hired by Mesa in August 2005, but long hours and unpleasant relations between pilots and management wore on him.

He sometimes slept on the plane during late shifts — “camping trips,” pilots call them — that required him to fly again early the next morning. He said he often worked a 13-hour day to get in five hours of flying time, the only hours pilots are paid for.

Mr. Lehmacher quit last September and runs a travel agency in Phoenix that sells cruise trips to airline workers.

Mesa officials did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Samantha Negley did not get the flying bug until a boyfriend took her up in a four-seat Cessna in 1999. It was a bright day in San Luis Obispo, Calif., and they flew over farms, across the beach and over the ocean. “He let me take the controls. It was amazing,” said Ms. Negley, who is now 30.

She graduated from college that year with a journalism degree and spent four years working odd jobs — tending bar, substitute teaching, tutoring — to save money for flight lessons. Landings were her favorite part.

In an essay for a $1,500 scholarship she won to supplement her flight school costs, Ms. Negley said she planned a life around flying. “In five years, I plan to be a captain at Mesa Airlines,” she wrote. “In 10 years, I plan to be a first officer with a major airline, awaiting my chance to upgrade.”

She was accepted at a New Mexico flight school that feeds pilot candidates to Mesa and was hired in 2004. “The day I found out was like the best day ever,” she said. Making about $15,000 initially, and saddled with $50,000 of school debt, she moved in with her sister in Washington, flying out of Dulles Airport.

A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.

She also worked overnight shifts, sleeping across a row of seats and being awakened by a gate agent in time to brush her teeth in the plane lavatory and tuck her shirt in before passengers came aboard. “It was crazy,” she said.

“I was enjoying the landings. I was living my whole life for those three minutes a day.” Otherwise, she thought, “this is the worst life ever.”

She quit last July and went to work at Mattel, where she writes copy for packaging of Hot Wheels and other toys. She makes more money and has whittled her student debt down to $30,000.

She knows she will be home every night in Long Beach to walk the dogs. She plays beach volleyball. And became engaged in February. “Normal job. Normal life,” she said. “I know I made the right decision.”
 
It's hard to explain to folks who started out in this profession AFTER 9/11... but it's really not the job it once was.

Before 9/11 the pay, work-rules, duty-rigs, and other benefits really made pursuing the airline profession worthwhile. Today - especially if you have a family - you need to really look critically at the career and decide if it is what you want.

I empathize with the person in the article above who said that she lived for landings because there are a few little things I miss about airline flying. I miss takeoffs, approaches, landings. I miss bidding (I know it sounds strange). I miss Boston overnights. I miss flying an airplane with a cockpit big enough to stretch out in. I miss APUs and ground air conditioning. I miss dispatchers.

But I rarely miss birthdays, holidays, family events. I'll rarely miss little league games, school plays, fishing trips with my little guy. If 9/11 had never happened and I were still at US Airways coming up on my 10 year anniversary at the carrier i'm sure I would have stayed forever. I doubt we would have kids -- never interested us until I got here. But paradigms change and we must view success through the lens of our experiences.

If 30% of pilots furloughed after 09/11 didn't go back when called, there must be a reason why. Before you start out in the airline industry, find one and ask "why?".

Sincerely,
Mike (a 30%er)
 
Holy ####. . .a well written article concering the truth.

I'm partially amazed, but maybe that's because I'm not fully awake just yet.
 
Holy ####. . .a well written article concering the truth.

I'm partially amazed, but maybe that's because I'm not fully awake just yet.
You're obviously well awake enough to get through that article, which is wide awake by my standards.:p

That is definently a great article.
 
Well, I got out of the shower, got dressed. . .then realized I didn't shave. . .

But, before I ran off to shave - Had to get my morning JC update. Read this little gem.

I think this thing made my day, and it JUST started! No one can bring me down! ;)
 
Well, I got out of the shower, got dressed. . .then realized I didn't shave. . .

But, before I ran off to shave - Had to get my morning JC update. Read this little gem.

I think this thing made my day, and it JUST started! No one can bring me down! ;)
This is a great way to end my day. Mentally exhausted from learning things all over again:crazy:, time for bed.
 
I find it periodically cathartic to look at this list and remind myself of what life was like.
  1. No more hats (yes, I wore mine like I was told)
  2. No more ties
  3. No more dragging my rollaboard around with a 50 lb flight-kit attached
  4. No more dragging said rollaboard through ice/snow in the employee lot
  5. No more employee lot busses lacking air-conditioning, heat, and shocks
  6. No more waiting at employee lot bus-stops
  7. No more entering security codes at every &%@$# door in the building
  8. No more TSA telling me to take off my shoes
  9. No more TSA inspecting my flashlight for the 40th time
  10. No more TSA telling me to remove my hat
  11. No more TSA leaning in to smell my breath
  12. No more TSA
  13. No more gate agents taking their good ol' time printing the release
  14. No more waiting for gate agents to give you access to your airplane
  15. No more waiting for jetway drivers
  16. No more calling ops to ask for said jetway driver & being told, "shift change"
  17. No more flight attendants calling up front because it's too hot, cold, bumpy
  18. No more flight attendants sitting in first class instead of providing customer service
  19. No more flight attendants whining about not getting crew meals
  20. No more flight attendants whining when they DO get crew meals
  21. No more APU's deferred with no ground air carts available
  22. No more waiting for the hotel van
  23. No more roadside fleabag hotels
  24. No more :40 van rides to the long-overnight hotel so the F/As can shop
  25. No more apologies for being away on weekends, holidays, special occasions
  26. No more watching flying be outsourced to the lowest bidder
  27. No more watching ALPA spend dues on "strongly worded letters"
  28. No more ALPA (thats the best part!)
  29. No more dilapidated "crew rooms"
  30. No more junior manning or extensions
  31. No more pagers
  32. No more calls from scheduling at 2am to transition you from regular reserve to short-call
  33. No more quick-calls to go to Akron and back
  34. No more racing through the terminal and grabbing a McValue Meal during a 15 minute break
  35. No more equipment changes every time you fly through the hub
  36. No more nastygrams from the company whenever you're in negotiations
  37. No more feeling ashamed at the lack of customer service the company provides.
  38. No more apologizing for weather, aircraft size, ATC delays, mechanical delays, etc.
  39. No more groundschools in converted hangars or old elementary schools.
  40. and finally... no more turning on CNN every night and wondering whether the airline is still in business.
(ahhh... I feel better now)
Did I miss anything?
 
This article needs to be mandatory reading for EVERY flight academy (pilot factory) student and should be posted on every bulletin board AT MAPD, DCA, ATP, FSI, UND, and ERAU. I am pretty tired of all the fluff and happy parties you see from these schools in magazines. Airlines are no longer the glamorous high paying jobs of the 70s-80s.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/business/10pilots.html

“It’s a nightmare,” said Kit Darby, who retired a year ago as a United pilot and runs a pilot job fair business, Air Inc.
WOW!!! That's the first true statement that KD has said in 20 years. (and yes...I have retained some of his propaganda from 1987)

He sometimes slept on the plane during late shifts — “camping trips,” pilots call them — that required him to fly again early the next morning. He said he often worked a 13-hour day to get in five hours of flying time, the only hours pilots are paid for.

Mr. Lehmacher quit last September and runs a travel agency in Phoenix that sells cruise trips to airline workers.

She was accepted at a New Mexico flight school that feeds pilot candidates to Mesa and was hired in 2004. “The day I found out was like the best day ever,” she said. Making about $15,000 initially, and saddled with $50,000 of school debt, she moved in with her sister in Washington, flying out of Dulles Airport.

A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.

She also worked overnight shifts, sleeping across a row of seats and being awakened by a gate agent in time to brush her teeth in the plane lavatory and tuck her shirt in before passengers came aboard. “It was crazy,” she said.

I was living my whole life for those three minutes a day.” Otherwise, she thought, “this is the worst life ever.”

At Mesa Air Group, a big regional carrier, 784 pilots left last year,

Mesa officials did not return phone calls seeking comment.

The truth hurts. Silence speaks volumes.
 
Part of it is how you choose to go about the industry. I didn't go to a flight school thus I didn't incure the debt. I did many jobs in aviation prior to flying freight full time for years making and saving good money. I found an opportunity with an airline that was right for me.I have goals yet to accomplish, but I am happy with my experience. I think the problem is you reap what you sow. If you sell your soul and go to the mesa program and just to be an airline pilot you get what you asked for. If you go spend a lot of money for "the fast track" and go to some pos carrier what do you think is gonna happen. People try and pound a square peg in a round hole. Just because you want to be an airline pilot doesnt mean you should be. People think it is cute to patronize each other an say go for it when that may not be the right thing. There are a lot of other jobs in aviation than airlines. The people who go to an airline an are miserable are the same type that are foreclosing on their homes because they want something that it looks like they can swing, but its too much when the reality sets in.

My point is think about the big picture like Zap said and set yourself up to succeed.
 
This article needs to be mandatory reading for EVERY flight academy (pilot factory) student and should be posted on every bulletin board AT MAPD, DCA, ATP, FSI, UND, and ERAU. I am pretty tired of all the fluff and happy parties you see from these schools in magazines. Airlines are no longer the glamorous high paying jobs of the 70s-80s.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/business/10pilots.html

WOW!!! That's the first true statement that KD has said in 20 years. (and yes...I have retained some of his propaganda from 1987)













The truth hurts. Silence speaks volumes.

:yeahthat: Word.
 
I went to a big "academy" school. Enrolled pre-9/11. I'll be honest, I expected exactly what I've done so far - instructed for a couple years, go to a regional, plan to upgrade in a couple years, etc. I never once thought I'd walk right into a major job right out of college. I guess my goals have been realistic in the type of environment we are in. I also knew the pay was going to suck at first.

I remember once in high school, I was with my parents and we were talking about pay. They mentioned that the median pay in the US (at that time) was around $36,000/year. I gawked and wondered how ANYONE could live on that. How ironic :).

I'm not sure I could handle a true 91 job. I'm on reserve now and holy smokes I'm not sure I could do this the rest of my life. I need some sort of schedule.
 
I think its important to remember that there are many other flying opporunities out there: cargo, corporate, fractionals, expat flying jobs, etc. Many of these pay well. Unless you just have an ego and HAVE to fly big jets, there is no reason why you can't make a good living in aviation. Having said that, hopefully the airlines will get back to the way they used to be. It's not impossible.
 
If you sell your soul and go to the mesa program and just to be an airline pilot you get what you asked for. If you go spend a lot of money for "the fast track" and go to some pos carrier what do you think is gonna happen.

Exactly, it's not a coincidence that the two pilots who left, worked for Mesa. Choosing to go to the airlines should be a decision that is well researched and well planned out for financially. Jumping into an academy and onto the first regional you can find isn't good decision making, and in the end, it'll make your career unbearable. I know several airline pilots who are in the opposite position, they love their jobs and live accordingly financially so that they're not over their head in debt. Just like any career, it should be something that is well thought out before making a decision.

Jtsastre
 
This civilian aviation business is weird, and it's crazy how one can adapt to it. I left the Army one year away from making $100,000 a year to a job with a base salary of $28,000. I took a run that pays $38k which I classified to myself as just about livable as long as K is working too, and now am taking a run that pays $46K and suddenly feel rich.

I'm not sure what my point is. Maybe it's that aviation isn't so bad as long as your wife works and you don't have kids.

At any rate - I thought the article was timely and well-done.
 
Jumping into an academy and onto the first regional you can find isn't good decision making, and in the end, it'll make your career unbearable.

OK, but I'd say reality is... a guy needs a job, sends out a bunch of resumes and gets couple answers, goes to the interview and ends up in a bad company. I bet everyone would work a for super dooper regional if they had choice, I don't think anyone just picks the airline of his dreams and gets hired there on the spot.
But, then again I might be wrong, maybe Delta would hire me right now with 200 hours :D
 
90% of the (I'm sure very accurate) list of complaints above can be avoided if you fly 135 cargo. It's sad that the check haulers are going the way of the dodo. I get paid a living wage (~40k) to fly four hours a night, four nights a week, and sleep in a recliner for a couple more. I'm taking classes at the local CC because...THEY INTEREST ME (not because they're going to help me fulfill the expectations of some pencil-pusher with his nose in a "hiring manual" and his finger...well nevermind). I sleep in my own bed every night...er, day. I enjoy my three day weekend to a degree that I probably oughtn't detail here. Am I going to retire from this job? Not freaking likely, spendthrift that I am, but I'm also putting TPIC in the logbook, so maybe someday someone else will make the mistake of hiring me.

If this sounds like bragging, God knows, I also still sometimes scare the #(*$# out of myself, and I can't see flying ancient airplanes (no matter how cool) in the middle of the night for the rest of my life. Sometimes things break, sometimes it's cold, sometimes loose items in the cockpit wind up bouncing off the ceiling...and seeing the same ten people most days of your life probably isn't helpful to the ole mental state. But is it fun? Affirmative. The point is there are still good flying jobs out there, if you're "in to" that kind of thing. My overarching guidance has always been "What would Steve McQueen do?" I've yet to be disappointed. To liberally crib from the sig file of an old freightdog on "that other site": "Fly because you like to. If you're in it for the money or recognition, you're probably going to be disappointed."

If you really like to fly, resign yourself to the possibility that you're not going to pull down six figures for barely working. Maybe you will (I'm still tryin') and it will be a nice surprise. But as with all other jobs (IMHO), happiness has a lot more to do with what you do off the clock than on it.
 
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